Interesting JE Hits....

[thaiboxerken]

Hi, Steve. What I find absolutely amazing is why all, or at least some of those skeptics out there who are so darned sure that there is nothing to this stuff, why they don't attempt to get a reading by someone like this trance medium that you went to.

It would seem such a great opportunity for them to see for themselves what a powerful experience this could be. It boggles my mind that they don't do this, especially when they have such a great testimony as you've just given. ....neo

LOL. I'll tell you what, neo, if YOU pay for my visit to a medium, I'll go. Many skeptics really don't wish to donate their money to scam artists.

I am not entertained by John Edward, so I try not to toss my money his way. After all, that's all he claims to be able to do with his disclaimer.

 

[Instig8R]

Hearing letters -vs- Seeing letters

Well, I guess that you could go ahead and say it that way instead, Instig8R, but that still doesn't make your statement any more convincing or accurate than it was before, since it is only your impression that this occurs frequently, up against my impression that it's actually quite infrequent.

Hey, Neo-- Have you forgotten that it was you who argued with RC, and claimed that JE usually gets information clairaudiently. If you had bothered to look at some transcripts, instead of relying on your memory or a quote from JE's book, you would know that most of the time, JE does't indicate HOW he is receiving the information. He usually asks open-ended questions, like "Who has the T-connection".

Now that's crossing a line, and heading towards being a trifle insulting, Instig8R! I am going by my own recollections of what I see on the show, and I only copied the section of "OLT" that applied to this issue, for those who didn't have a copy of the book. I certainly didn't need to look up what JE said about how he gets people's names, since I've been watching the show for two years now.

In the meantime, I suggest that you start watching the show a bit more often and while you are at it, start keeping track of this type of thing, because I maintain that your impression is wrong, and that JE does not get all that many initials in the way that you have suggested he does. RC said that he was going to start watching more closely for this as well, and so will I. Start counting!

Just because RC hasn’t been watching CO lately, there is no reason for you to conclude that I have not watched the show lately. I watch the show at least 3 times per week. I consider it highly prejudicial for you to suggest otherwise with no basis in fact. If I didn’t know you better, I would interpret that as a ploy to undermine my observations.

If you based your claim on what appears on TV, instead of what was said in the book, you would note that JE does not usually state how how he receives messages, but when he does commit to a method, it is pretty equally distributed amongst "hearing", "seeing" and "feeling". Since you didn't appear to have noticed it, I presumed you were following the prescribed method JE wrote about in his book, which you quoted with such authority.

I would remind you that initially, you argued with RC that JE receives most of the messages clairaudiently. I hope by now you have discovered that the transcripts do not support your argument. Most of the information cannot be attributed to any particular method.

That's a valid point. No one has to accept JE's word for it. I just wanted RC, and anyone else who was interested, to know what JE has said on the subject. I base my own claim on what I've seen on the show, and not on what JE has written in his book.

Yeah, right!

Right. And you claim you've seen him do this how many times, ballpark figure?

1. a few times
2. several times
3. very often
4. almost always

There is no need for you to exaggerate my claim. I was refuting your claim that JE predominently uses clairaudience. When not being deliberately vague about the method, JE claims that “they’re making me feel like”, “they’re showing me” and “they’re telling me”. Since you are the one claiming that it is predominantly clairaudience, it should be easy for you to prove it. I think you should start the count!

I also note that it is your distinct claim that JE is SHOWN numbers, rather than hearing them. While you are reviewing the transcripts, you will also learn that JE is hearing numbers, despite his claims (and your claims) to the contrary. I think you also posted an excerpt from his book, about how the spirits love to show him numbers. It is another example of how JE can deviate from his own stated rules, without it being noticed.

Yes, you probably remember the "JO" being put over the woman because I believe I transcribed that particular reading. However, I am sticking to my guns, and maintaining that these instances are far and few between in the many, many readings that JE does.

I’m also remembering JE writing letters, using his index finger on his imaginary chalkboard, painting a big “H”, and then there are other times when he puts a big “V” over a family. The writing instances and other occasions of being shown letters are comparable to the other times when JE is being told or made to feel something. Do you object to observations that JE is being shown, as opposed to being “made to feel like”? When JE says, “they’re making me feel like there’s an R-connection”, it does not reflect the clairaudience that you previously claimed happened the most. Is this a selective argument?

That is in another category altogether, Instig8R. The "AMA" or American Medical Association logo is a symbol that is within JE's frame of reference. That has nothing to do with his getting names. It is a staple of his readings, letting him know, as you say, that someone had to have gone against medical advice and refused treatment or something.

That is pure Ca-ca de Toro. It has everything to do with JE’s method of getting names. The official symbol of the American Medical Association is the Sword of Caduceus. The symbol is a snake, crawling around a sword. A guy like JE, with his medical/hospital background would be quite familiar with it.

However, JE doesn’t claim to be shown the logo… he claims to see the letters AMA, the abbreviation for American Medical Association. If JE can formulate abbreviations for such things as “Against Medical Advice”, then he can formulate abbreviations for names and places. I can only marvel at the fact that he has not done so, after 18 years in the psychic-medium business.

Given that getting the names of people is so very important, Instig8R, I question your assertion that the very part of the reading where names come through are edited out of the show. I also take issue with your claim that the CO readings are heavily edited, since you have no way of knowing that is the case. Simply stating it as a fact, does not make it one. .....neo

Uh, Neo— Who made the assertion that “the very part of the reading where names come through are edited out of the show”? The general consensus seems to be that the misses are edited out.

Based on the amount of footage edited out of gallery readings on CO, and based on my personal observations of the Westbury seminar and the edited readings that were created from it, I believe there is a good basis for my claim about editing. Perhaps JE's readings on Larry King Live would be better if he could invoke editing like he does on CO Gallery readings... which are still quite poor, despite the advantages he has on his own turf. I guess we're in for another flurry of bad LKL readings next month, when his newest book hits the stands.

 

[Loki]

Neo,

It boggles my mind that they don't do this, especially when they have such a great testimony as you've just given.

It boggles my mind that there is any debate at all about the validity of ADC and mediumship if Steve's trance medium is that good! I read Steve's testimony, and see only 3 alternatives :

1. Steve is completely correct in his recollection of "100% accuracy", and the trance medium had no prior knowledge of Steve - mediumship is a hot favourite!
2. Steve is completely correct, but the medium did have prior of knowledge of Steve and was hoit reading.
3. Steve is mistaken in his memory - the reading was not "100% accurate" - the status of the medium is undetermined.

How do you propse we discover which of these three is correct? Steve says there were other witnesses with him - so perhaps we can confirm their version of the reading, and therefore eliminate (tentatively) option 3. How can we decide between1 and 2? Steve is *sure* that medium didn't know him, and couldn't find out - but surely that's also a sign of a clever fake? If you know exactly how a magician does their trick, it's not very impressive. Surely the "gee - how did they do that" factor only occurs when you don't know?

 

[thaiboxerken]

Neo,


It boggles my mind that there is any debate at all about the validity of ADC and mediumship if Steve's trance medium is that good! I read Steve's testimony, and see only 3 alternatives :

[/QUOTE]

Well.. what we really have here is just another anecdote by a believer that calls himself a skeptic. Steve Grenard is as much of a skeptic as Gary Schwartz.

Still no evidence, the JREF still has a million dollars waiting for a medium to take.

 

[neofight]

LOL. I'll tell you what, neo, if YOU pay for my visit to a medium, I'll go. Many skeptics really don't wish to donate their money to scam artists.

I am not entertained by John Edward, so I try not to toss my money his way. After all, that's all he claims to be able to do with his disclaimer.

Well, I've got my own favorite charities to donate to, thaiboxer, and you ain't one of them, but too bad you weren't around last year, when Valyou offered to pay Claus' way out to California to get a reading. She might have put her money where your mouth is. lol .....neo

 

[RC]

And JE had Shelley Peck, another medium, as a close friend in his life, although she's no longer alive

Ah, yes, the great Shelley Peck. Another one of JE's friends/"medium" colleagues, like Robert "page 17" Brown and Suzane "did Papa like to wear hats, please may I ask" Northrop.

I didn't know much about Ms. Peck until recently I had a look through the postings at Suzane Northrop's board. People there have been talking about the readings with Shelley. One poster is skeptical of her reading and that says a lot given how firm in their beliefs the crowd is over there. The "hit" she got was when Shelley told her that she has a picture of she and her mother in the living room. Stunning hit.

The other amazing hit given by someone else was when Peck asked why her daughter was wearing blue at her communion. Apparently the daughter didn't wear blue, so Peck went on to say that it must have been a piece of jewelry. Well, lo and behold, the daughter did indeed have a blue stone on her ring! Such a special hit.

I'm a little sarcastic tonight, but please. I held my tongue over there because they deserve their space, but every single one of JE's buddies seem like 2nd rate cold readers. And Peck is his mentor!

 

[RC]

Posted by RC:

Yes I do remember reading that, and would be interested to hear more. But just realize that while I have no reason to believe you would be misleading of your account I still have to swallow my "ancedotyle pill" because I have only you're word to verify upon. I don't disagree with your statement persay, but do realize that lately in these posts there have been attempts to try and nail down a process of sorts for how these mediums work. That has come in part from mine and others prompting of just how this communication works because it seems horrible inconsistent from medium to medium, and even sometimes from reading to reading from the same medium.

I understand where you're coming from, and I don't expect anyone to take my anecdote as the truth. I merely offer it to explain why I am more open to "the process" than others.

Also, just to be clear, while I have had readings, the experience I am talking about is a mediumship experiment in which *I* gave the reading. I was the one who brought through "Johann" and the "Tom Petty" record. That is why it is compelling to me. I can't say I really understand what happened, nor do I necessarily believe that it was mediumship, but I did...in a meditative state..."see" the word "Johann" and the Tom Petty album, and it turned out that the teacher's dead grandfathers are Johann and Tom.

I'll write more about it on another thread when I have a little time.

 

[RC]

RC,
I think you mean to say something like "yet not operate in an easily understood or explained manner".

Fair enough, that is closer to what I meant.

 

[voidx]

Posted by Steve Grenard:

Reply: To this, I can reply that this is an emerging field. Perhaps based on physics about which many have theorized but also about which little has been conclusively determined so I have no doubt and wonder little why basic causality(ies) has/have not been established for this. I seriously doubt that platform mediums like JE have anything other than the most rudimentary facts re these considerations so I hardly expect them to understand the math. And while I don't wish to be picky, you omitted the analogy to artists, musicians, actors, et al who certainly operate on different basic underlying motivations and have diverse objectives.

I agree that its obvious JE doesn't understand what it is technically that he does, and doesn't necessarily need to in order to "do what he does", as per your, I don't know squat about cars, but I can drive one example. Go ahead and nitpick, that's perfectly fine, but I was correcting you're analogy with what I thought was more accurate, keep that in mind. Also, musicians et al are also a poor example. They work entirely in the subjective. Their is no scientific process to art, its a subjective experience. Telepathy/PSI/ESP if real should very much be a scientific process of communication, so again, not an apt analogy. I understand I'm in a way asking for the impossible right now by demanding supporters of mediumship explain to me the science behind this communication, its completely unknown, and to me that's the problem with it. I'll admit I've not read everything there is to read on this topic by a long shot, so if there are physics based theories of how this form of communication works then I'd be glad to read them. If there are not, or if they are still mostly unsupported hypothesis, then I have to ask why paranormal research has not been able to do more in the last 30-40 years in furthering our knowledge of this communication process, if it indeed exists. It seems to me their trying to correlate whether it exists period by analyzing test results, and are in no way closer to understanding how it might work, but rather are still trying to nail down that it works consistently, period.

Posted by RC:

I understand where you're coming from, and I don't expect anyone to take my anecdote as the truth. I merely offer it to explain why I am more open to "the process" than others.

Fair enough.

Posted by RC:

Also, just to be clear, while I have had readings, the experience I am talking about is a mediumship experiment in which *I* gave the reading. I was the one who brought through "Johann" and the "Tom Petty" record. That is why it is compelling to me. I can't say I really understand what happened, nor do I necessarily believe that it was mediumship, but I did...in a meditative state..."see" the word "Johann" and the Tom Petty album, and it turned out that the teacher's dead grandfathers are Johann and Tom.

I seem to remember you mentioning that in one of the other threads.

Posted by Neofight:

Hi, Steve. What I find absolutely amazing is why all, or at least some of those skeptics out there who are so darned sure that there is nothing to this stuff, why they don't attempt to get a reading by someone like this trance medium that you went to.

That's simple, because we'd be meeting on their terms, in their controlled environment. Same as going to a magic show, I might not have an idea how they came up with the information, but that doesn't automatically authentic them either. I see the trick, but I don't know how its accomplished persay. This question can be turned both ways. If these mediums are so deadsure about what they do, why not work to dictate the terms of a test with the JREF and prove us wrong, that they do in fact have a new, previously unknown of form of communication of some sort, prove it to the world.

 

[neofight]

Ah, yes, the great Shelley Peck. Another one of JE's friends/"medium" colleagues, like Robert "page 17" Brown and Suzane "did Papa like to wear hats, please may I ask" Northrop.

I didn't know much about Ms. Peck until recently I had a look through the postings at Suzane Northrop's board. People there have been talking about the readings with Shelley. One poster is skeptical of her reading and that says a lot given how firm in their beliefs the crowd is over there. The "hit" she got was when Shelley told her that she has a picture of she and her mother in the living room. Stunning hit.

The other amazing hit given by someone else was when Peck asked why her daughter was wearing blue at her communion. Apparently the daughter didn't wear blue, so Peck went on to say that it must have been a piece of jewelry. Well, lo and behold, the daughter did indeed have a blue stone on her ring! Such a special hit.

I'm a little sarcastic tonight, but please. I held my tongue over there because they deserve their space, but every single one of JE's buddies seem like 2nd rate cold readers. And Peck is his mentor!

Well, I guess you are one skeptic who places a lot of weight on anecdotal evidence, right RC?

RC, I've never seen a Shelley Peck reading. Never. Not a one. I didn't come to believe in JE's mediumship right away, even though I had seen many of his readings. I don't think I'll make a judgement on the merits of Shelley Peck's abilities either. ....neo

 

[neofight]

I was the one who brought through "Johann" and the "Tom Petty" record.

RC, I asked you this elsewhere, but I guess it got buried. Were you already familiar with the jacket of the Tom Petty album that you saw?

In other words, is this a good example of your getting information within your own frame of reference, i.e. a particular Tom Petty record? Or did you simply see a generic record cover that had the name Tom Petty on it?.....neo

 

[neofight]

Also, musicians et al are also a poor example. They work entirely in the subjective. Their is no scientific process to art, its a subjective experience. Telepathy/PSI/ESP if real should very much be a scientific process of communication, so again, not an apt analogy.

I'm curious, voidx, about why you believe that telepathy is more a science, and not an art. How can you say that mediumship is not subjective? Do we know that for a fact? No, of course we don't, since we don't even know if it is real.

Intuition, including telepathy/PSI/ESP if they indeed exist, stems from the right side of the brain, just as do all of the creative and artistic abilities that we might have. Logic and science are related to the left side of the brain. So why are you so convinced that if mediumship is real, it should "very much be a scientific process of communication"? .....neo

 

[MRC_Hans]

*snip*
Intuition, including telepathy/PSI/ESP if they indeed exist, stems from the right side of the brain, just as do all of the creative and artistic abilities that we might have.
Logic and science are related to the left side of the brain. So why are you so convinced that if mediumship is real, it should "very much be a scientific process of communication"? .....neo

How on Earth can you say that? Since you admit that we do not even know if such faculties exist, how can you state which side of the brain they come from?

And, if you assume they are from one or the other side of the brain, then it follows that you assume them to be processes of the brain, and thus within the realm of logic and science.

The fact that we mostly use the left side of the brain for science and logic does not mean that we cannot use logic and science to understand the right side of the brain. Obviously we use our brain to understand things outside our brain too.

Hans

 

[CFLarsen]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Seeing Letters -vs- Hearing Letters

I also take issue with your (Instig8r) claim that the CO readings are heavily edited, since you have no way of knowing that is the case. Simply stating it as a fact, does not make it one. .....neo

It is your claim that a reading can take 30 minutes. It is your claim that the CO readings are not heavily edited. We know that we only see about 11 minutes of readings.

So, what happens to the remaining 19 minutes, neo?

 

[CFLarsen]

Well, I've got my own favorite charities to donate to, thaiboxer, and you ain't one of them, but too bad you weren't around last year, when Valyou offered to pay Claus' way out to California to get a reading. She might have put her money where your mouth is. lol .....neo

Perhaps you should also tell that Valyou insisted on knowing my personal info, too. But, nooooooo, I would certainly remain anonymous to the medium she was trying to persuade me was real.



Why do you always seem to leave out the little bit of information that completely destroys your story, neo?

 

[SteveGrenard]

Instigator writes:

However, JE doesn’t claim to be shown the logo… he claims to see the letters AMA, the abbreviation for American Medical Association. If JE can formulate abbreviations for such things as “Against Medical Advice”, then he can formulate abbreviations for names and places. I can only marvel at the fact that he has not done so, after 18 years in the psychic-medium business.






Reply: While AMA may be the nick-name of the American Medical Association it is also, quite definitely, also the acronym used by doctors when discharging patients from the hospital or emergency room against their best advice ....or documenting patients who refuse treatment, surgery or other procedures.

JE would know this having worked in healthcare. I can assure he you did not make it up as the term has been in use long before he was born. He did not formulate this acronym or abbreviation.

Just for fun, I entered the following string Google: "AMA=against medical advice" (try it...). I came up with the following (shortened) results:

COBRA/EMTALA Resources for hospitals
... Many folks confuse this with an AMA -- Against Medical Advice -- but it
is not the same as an AMA form because of what is required in it.. ...
www.medlaw.com/forms.htm - 11k - Cached - Similar pages

[DOC]ER: THE MEDICAL REGISTER
File Format: Microsoft Word 97 - View as HTML
... The data is conflicting. * AMA: Against Medical Advice. If I tell you stay
put and you leave anyway, you're leaving Against Medical Advice. ...
www.geoffbarton.co.uk/files/Registersamplesx3.doc - Similar pages

AMA (Ethics) From the Editor
... This lack of familiarity makes already difficult encounters—dealing with patients
who want to leave AMA (against medical advice) or communicating with ...
www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/9582.html - 22k - Cached - Similar pages

New Hampshire Hospital Association
... AMA, Against Medical Advice: Code the disposition AMA in the following instances:
The patient’s record has an order written stating he/she left AMA, even if ...
www.healthynh.com/healthcare_data/ newsletter/april1998.php - 8k - Cached - Similar pages

Sirote.com
... Consequently, the hospital staff had Cook read and sign an AMA (“Against Medical
Advice”) acknowledging his refusal of further treatment and of the ...
www.sirote.com/publications/ index.asp?action=details&pub_id=217 - 18k - Cached - Similar pages

AMA Questions Anti-Bacterial Soaps 6/17/00
... Toiletry and Fragrance Association, had previously lobbied the AMA against having
any ... health care professional and they are not intended as medical advice. ...
www.mercola.com/2000/june/17/anti_bacterial_soap.htm - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

[PDF]National Association of Addiction Treatment Providers
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
... #1. AMA = Against Medical Advice Any discharge of a patient for any reason other
than having completed the treatment process or meeting the treatment goals. ...
www.naatp.net/naatp/2003naatpbenchmark.pdf - Similar pages

AMA: No ethical barriers to cloning for research
... that this decision should not be viewed as "pitting the AMA against the Bush ... for your
general knowledge and is not a substitute for medical advice or treatment ...
yalenewhavenhealth.org/HealthNews/ reuters/NewsStory0617200339.htm - 12k - Cached - Similar pages

MIM - Approved Medical Abbreviations AD
... ALP, alkaline phosphatase. ALS, amyotrophic lateral sclerosis. ALT, alanine aminotransferase.
AM, before noon. AMA, against medical advice. Amb, ambulate. Amb. ambulatory. ...
academic.med.ohio-state.edu/MIMabbrev/abbr_AD.htm - 101k - Cached - Similar pages

DR BELAIR'S Medical acronyms glossary-A
... ALTS Acute Lumbar Trauma Syndrome. AM Antero Medial. AMA Against Medical Advice.
AMA AntiMitochondrial Antibody. AMC Arthrogryposis Multiplex Congenita. ...
www.dr-belair.com/dic/Medicine/Medecine/ gl-medical%20acronyms%20glossary-A.htm - 17k

 

[Loki]

SteveGrenard,

I was also interested in confirming the identity of the spirit I wanted to contact and having received that confirmation, I had no reason to assume there would be any misses whatsoever.

Do you think that if you had asked the spirit to give his full name and data of birth *immediately* after pointing to the photo that this spirit would have been able to do so?

There weren't any.

No misses at all?? Nothing ambiguous, or open to interpretation?

...it was specific things about the house, about the dogs, he identified my father who died before he was born as being with him, other deceased family members, some of whom died a long time ago including a great grandmother in 1938. He did identify these by name. He talked also about his pets, all accurate as to their name (e.g. Rambo is here....Rambo was his black lab who died a year after he did, probably of melancholia) and so forth. It was mostly about meeting dead relatives, many of whom he never knew in life. It was fascinating
and accurate. He called these by their first names and their relationships such as Grandma Sophie (died in 1938). He called my wifes father "Big Daddy" which was his nick-name. He died when he was only 15 so knew this nick-name.

I assume we have a missing "never" regarding the spirit knowing your wife's father's nick-name?

You took notes - how many relatives were identified by relationship and name? You list one - Grandma Sophie. How many more were there?

The medium did not know me from Adam. I paid cash. Used a untraceable trunk line at my institution to make the appointment and gave only my first name.

How did you select the medium? When did you tell you wife about the sitting? How much time elapsed between the phone call and the actual sitting? What did you say when making the appointment - what reason did you give for wanting a reading? Did you ask if note taking would be okay?

What is an "untraceable trunk line"? Does the New York phone system offer "Caller ID" as an option for incoming calls?

He told me where his RayBans were hidden (they were where he said they would be). And what blew me away was he said "Thank's for the pin" The night before I came home with some Flag lapel pins given out at work. I stuck one in his picture frame.

Did the spirit say anything more to identify that "the pin" was this Flag lapel that you'd stuck in the frame, or is that a connection you have drawn ?

I did not say a word. Just took notes, pages of them and never looked up or even nodded.

What did the people who accompanied you do during the reading?

I am trying to get this idea in front of some researchers who plan to move ahead over the next few years with more mediumship trials.

Why does anyone waste time with "mental mediums"! If your trance medium is this good, then you could soon have the pleasure of separating James Randi from 1 million dollars, and probably world wide fame shortly afterwards. How can you fail to pass any test if the medium can readily produce the spirit, the names and relationships of the entire family (including pets), and select themselves from a "mugshot lineup".

Steve, do *you* believe this medium can do this repeatedly, or is there some reason that the "power" that worked so brilliantly for you might fail completely for someone else? Why is the medium not interested in research? Can you identify the medium?

 

[Instig8R]

Reply: While AMA may be the nick-name of the American Medical Association it is also, quite definitely, also the acronym used by doctors when discharging patients from the hospital or emergency room against their best advice ....or documenting patients who refuse treatment, surgery or other procedures.

JE would know this having worked in healthcare. I can assure he you did not make it up as the term has been in use long before he was born. He did not formulate this acronym or abbreviation.

Just for fun, I entered the following string Google: "AMA=against medical advice" (try it...). I came up with the following (shortened) results:

-snip-

I am well aware of the fact that AMA is a well-known medical abbreviation for against medical advice. However, that is not how JE claims to use the term.

JE claims that he is being shown the AMA logo, he mentions American Medical Association, and then explains that it is his symbol for against medical advice. I believe he does so to eliminate any expectations that he can get other medical abbreviations, like HIV, AIDS, and a myriad of other medical abbreviations that run the gamut of health conditions.

Think of the readings where JE can't tell a gunshot wound from an auto accident, because all he has is the feeling of an impact. This problem could be eliminated in its entirety, because if JE can get medical abbreviations known by hospital personnel, then he could get the letters GSW, which is the official abbreviation for Gunshot Wound.

Unfortunately, after 18 years as a psychic-medium, he flounders around, offering vague causes of death. He has not tapped into the use of medical abbreviations which could pin him down to anything specific.

 

[CFLarsen]

A 100%-accuracy medium of any kind means only one of two things:

1) He's a crook.
2) He's genuine.

In both cases, we need to find out.

Steve, what is the name of this medium again?

 

[SteveGrenard]

In the UK, the trance medium consulted was Robin Winbow.
The only other valid medium we found there was Kimberly Clark.
which was done cold over the phone and then, for a proxy, via the internet. In NY the trance medium with whom I had the described experience was Camille Walsh, however.