Interesting JE Hits....

Clancie

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C
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Some people ask here, "So...what kind of 'hits' impress you?"

I thought it would be interesting for those who watch CO to have a thread where we can jot them down from time to time, just to give some examples.

Here are two (separate posts--so please give me a minute for the second one, Claus, before responding to this one. :rolleyes: ).

This is from Tuesday's CO, second half hour. JE was reading a well groomed elderly, white-haired woman and her middle aged daughter in the audience. He said he had the older man, which they identified as grandpa. So far, nothing much....

JE: Did someone work with tools?
(I'm obviously thinking, "Nothing special there.")

Elderly woman: Yes, he did.

JE (to elderly woman): And did you...(puzzled look on his face)....cut down a tree?

The daughter turns to her mother with a bemused smile, like, "What a silly thing for him to say!"

Elderly woman: Yes.

Daughter looks at her, totally surprised.

JE: I mean, did you cut down a tree. That you did it yourself. Not that you hired someone to cut it down. Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself.

Elderly woman: (getting a little impatient). Yes. I couldn't afford to hire someone so I just went out and cut it down myself.
Click to expand...
No big message other than, "Here's a unique thing this sitter did", but its the kind of hit that I find interesting. This is because, IMO, it does not conform to cold reading (other than the claim its a "lucky guess").

And not researched either.

Next example...
 
Clancie said:
This is because, IMO, it does not conform to cold reading (other than the claim its a "lucky guess").

And not researched either.
Click to expand...

But how do we know it wasn't either a lucky guess or researched?
 
This was the next part with these same two sitters.

JE: Do you have a chalice?

Elderly woman: "Chalice?"

JE: Yes. Do you have a chalice that has his name on it. (gestures the height with his hands).

Elderly woman and daughter don't hear or don't understand.

JE: I'm being shown a chalice, you know, a silver chalice, a cup.

Elderly woman: Oh! A kiddush cup!

Daughter: Yes, we have his kiddush cup.

JE: Because he's telling me its got his name on it.

This part does not appear to be validated.

Post analysis:

Daughter to mother: Oh, I forgot that I'd had Evan's name (her son's) engraved on it and he was named after grandpa.

Elderly woman: Oh! That's a good one.
Click to expand...

What interested me about this was that a chalice and a kiddush cup are basically the same thing. JE was shown a Roman Catholic image to pass on to two Jewish sitters, with neither of them obviously being very familiar with the other's cultural frame of reference.

The kiddush cup with the engraved name of the deceased turned out to be a good validation for them.
 
I don't care how high you pile the anecdotes. They still do not constitute evidence.

Did you notice, at the start of the episode in which these appeared, the disclaimer that the show was for entertainment purposes only?

Of course you know that the shows are edited. I assume you would not try to pass off anything that occurs there as happening under controlled conditions?

You have no way of verifying that JE did not research these subjects, either before they entered the studio, or while they were in the studio with the microphones on.
 
Two things
I have yet to meet a family that identifies itself as ethnically Jewish that does not have a kiddush cup. I am an atheist and I have an kiddush cup. Mine is not engraved- my parents' kiddush cup is, with name of my great grandfather. I do not know how common it is to engrave them.

I am afraid I am not impressed by CO readings and these hits. The only pure readings that can be analyzed with any degree of certainty that there is no editing or trickery are Larry King live readings.

Why is there never a good hit like that on those readings? Why do most of them fail miserably, and invoke the cold reading type tricks like "does August mean anything", etc.

Clancie, can you explain the big difference in reading quality between LKL and CO?
 
AP, These are offered as examples of hits I found interesting. I don't present them as anything other than anecdotal. We all know editing is an issue, but I don't see how it is a relevant factor here.

Renata,
I have seen JE get some good hits on LKL, but I admit he's inconsistent. Whether that is because LK's abrupt manner with JE and the callers negatively impacts on a reading, the -very- short time limit LK gives to each one is a problem (since usually JE works up to it), there are audio problems (as in the last ones in Sept), or because its all guesswork on JE's part, I really don't know. I've seen JE do much better in other live formats, so I tend to think it's because LK is too abrupt and doesn't have patience for readings to develop. (I realize "develop = cold read" to some, but that isn't what it means to me).

And the point about the cup was he was describing a chalice to them, which was his referent, not theirs. He didn't know they weren't Catholic, yet it was still a good validation for them.

Do most Protestants usually have a similar kind of silver cup in their homes? Maybe Episcopalians, but I wouldn't think it was a common thing.

And JE saw it engraved, with the particular deceased's name on it--not some other relative--which was true.
 
TLN,

How would you research that the elderly woman had cut down her tree years ago?

Or that the daughter had a kiddush cup with the grandfather's name engraved on it? Do you think, like Randi, JE sent someone to the daughter's home to look around? Even in that improbable scenario, how would someone know whose name was engraved on it?

As for guesswork...we don't know. Do they look like good guesses to you?
 
JE: Did someone work with tools?
(I'm obviously thinking, "Nothing special there.")

You're right, nothing special.

Elderly woman: Yes, he did.

JE (to elderly woman): And did you...(puzzled look on his face)....cut down a tree?

The "puzzled look" sounds like part of JE's technique to get the subject to answer his question and feed back some more information.

The daughter turns to her mother with a bemused smile, like, "What a silly thing for him to say!"

Elderly woman: Yes.

Daughter looks at her, totally surprised.

Bingo! What's silly about cutting down a tree? Unless an elderly woman does it herself?

JE: I mean, did you cut down a tree. That you did it yourself. Not that you hired someone to cut it down. Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself.

Elderly woman: (getting a little impatient). Yes. I couldn't afford to hire someone so I just went out and cut it down myself.

So, Clancie, what if the lady and her daughter hadn't reacted in quite that way the the first question about the tree and it turned out that someone else had cut it down for her? I think JE would still have made it sound like a hit - not so impressive because more mundane - but still a hit. Good example of warm reading.
 
Really? Good hits in LKL? I have not seen many. And if he knows Larry King will impact negatively, why does he do it? he has been on the show 4 times, three times all by himself and once with other mediums.

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0302/28/lkl.00.html
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/06/lkl.00.html
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0109/10/lkl.00.html

Please read them over. The readings are appallingly bad.

How about we analyze them, instead.

CALLER: Yes, I would like to ask John what he can tell me about my father or my grandfather or even my grandmother who passed away.
EDWARD: What's your first name?
CALLER: My first name is Lisa.
EDWARD: Lisa, besides the people that you talked about, if -- I want to let you know that I might not be able to connect with them. I might connect with other people. If you again just say yes or no, don't say anything else.
The first thing to tell you is -- I know didn't you ask about this -- but they tell me to acknowledge a female figure that I would see as being like a contemporary to you, whether it be like a sister or a cousin but it's a female person that passed. I'm seeing this as being somebody who has got another name like yours, there has got to be another L-connection that comes up round you, that has got to be L- tied to this. I feel that this person passes either from breast cancer or a female type of cancer in some way.
OK, that's No. 1. That's the first thing I'm being shown. I know this would be like a cousin on your dad's side of the family, or a cousin through the male, like your husband's side of the family. But there is a connection through a male from what are they showing me. And they're also talking about somebody who would be known as either Richard or Rich, because a big R-connection that comes up connected to you. Do you understand that? Where is the August connection for you? Somebody passed in August?
CALLER: August? No.
EDWARD: There is. There's either an anniversary on the eighth of a month or an anniversary in the eight month, August. But there is an eight connection, from what are they showing me.
CALLER: Eight connection.
EDWARD: Is there a father-in-law also who has passed?
CALLER: No.
EDWARD: Then you've got another father figure besides yours.
CALLER: We do, OK.
EDWARD: There's like another male figure that I would see as being above you, like a father, whether it be an uncle. It's not a grandfather, it's like a father figure. There is an eight-connection, like the eighth month August or the eighth of a month. There's a connection to a young female figure to your side that I would see as being like a sister, or a friend that is passed from female a female type of cancer. That is what's coming through to me.
KING: Does any of that ring a bell?
CALLER: No. I don't know.
EDWARD: Write it down exactly as I said it.
Click to expand...

Example from the 9/10/01 reading.
It includes an ambigious 8 connection and an instruction to write things down after the caller does not get a single hit.

Would you like to take a crack at analyzing the readings from an entire show? Count hits, misses and items that look like cold reading tricks ( like the number 8 connection above). Please do not take one reading that is better than others- let's just analyze one show, beginning to end.
 
Clancie,

We have to dismiss this reading, for the following reasons:

  • This is not a reading: There is no spirit communication - we don't know if "grandpa" is dead or alive.
    According to you, with no spirit communication, it isn't a reading.
    (You used this excuse to dismiss Neill's reading, so why not this one?)
  • This is not the whole reading.
    According to you, it has to be the whole reading.
    (You used this excuse with Ian Rowland's cold-reading example, so why not this one?)
  • There were no men among the sitters.
    According to you, there has to be men, otherwise this is a serious problem.
    (You used this excuse with Shermer's cold-reading example, so why not this one?)
  • This is a transcript.
    According to you, we cannot trust transcripts.
    (You used this excuse to deny us a transcript of your own reading with Brian Hurst, so why not this one?)

These are all your reasons for not accepting a reading. Would you care to comment on why we should view this reading any different?

Also:

  • We don't know when the tree-felling happened. It could have happened in her early years, when she was stronger.
  • Cutting down a tree is hardly "unique", even for a woman.
  • We have to question the validity of the "chalice/kiddush cup w/engraving", because the elderly woman clearly remembers she has a cup, but not that it was engraved.
  • We also have to ask if either of the sitters wore any Jewish jewelry, e.g. a David's star. This would make the whole "hit" highly questionable.
 
Neither of these seem to be impressive hits to me. I'm sure my grandmother has cut down a tree in her time, as have many other elderly women. Doing such things is usually part of life on the farm back in the day. As far as the Chalice thing goes... It's not unheard of for people to give gifts at weddings and births etc of cups with people's names engraved on them. In fact, I think it's quite common.
 
Clancie said:
TLN,

How would you research that the elderly woman had cut down her tree years ago?

Or that the daughter had a kiddush cup with the grandfather's name engraved on it? Do you think, like Randi, JE sent someone to the daughter's home to look around? Even in that improbable scenario, how would someone know whose name was engraved on it?

As for guesswork...we don't know. Do they look like good guesses to you?
Click to expand...
1) If you knew their name and address (i.e. they had advance tickets) you could try searching local newspapers for anything. Maybe the woman got cited for cutting a tree without a permit, or maybe it fell on the neighbor's house. You don't know, do you?

The clip you presented did not show the JE provided the name which appeared on the cup. You are either leaving out important info, or maybe you have fallen for the classic cold reading ploy of getting the readee to supply info, which they then attribute to the reader.

Also, see the mention about microphones being on before a taping.
 
Clancie said:
How would you research that the elderly woman had cut down her tree years ago?
Click to expand...

Where, in the transcript, does it say this? Surely, you didn't provide a partial transcript, did you?

Clancie said:
Or that the daughter had a kiddush cup with the grandfather's name engraved on it? Do you think, like Randi, JE sent someone to the daughter's home to look around? Even in that improbable scenario, how would someone know whose name was engraved on it?
Click to expand...

Do you know for certain that the sitters did not give away that they were Jewish?
 
You actually give it away as cold reading before the reading starts:

He said he had the older man, which they identified as grandpa
Click to expand...

He said "older man" does anybody on Earth not know an older man who has died?

The only hit is you cut down a tree - so have a bajillion other people in the world. I'm sorry, but I do not consider this to be unique to this sitter. Not even close.

And he asked did 'you' cut down a tree - to which she answered 'yes'. Only then, after she confirms it, does JE say "Because that's what I'm getting, that you did it yourself."

1) JE asks a question
2) The sitter answers
3) JE repeats his confirmed question in the form of a statement

How is that not like cold reading?

This is essentially what you are saying: Yes, the most likely explanation is that JE was talking to her dead grandfather and he told him to tell her that she cut a tree down by herself.
 
CFLarsen said:

  • We don't know when the tree-felling happened. It could have happened in her early years, when she was stronger.
  • Cutting down a tree is hardly "unique", even for a woman.
  • We have to question the validity of the "chalice/kiddush cup w/engraving", because the elderly woman clearly remembers she has a cup, but not that it was engraved.
  • We also have to ask if either of the sitters wore any Jewish jewelry, e.g. a David's star. This would make the whole "hit" highly questionable.
Click to expand...

And if JE is a cold reader, how easily could he have moved to prune out a bush? Or NOT pruning a bush? Or "Why am I seeing a joke about a tree cutting?"; "Did you nag your husband to cut down a tree?"; "Did your children fall from a tree and you wanted to cut it down?" etc.

Psst- Claus- not David's star- "Star of David" aka "Magen David". If this reading was performed in Long Island, which has a huge Jewish community, it was not unreasonable to guess the ethnicity. If JE saw some Jewelry, like a Magen David, which is very common to wear, or some other identifiable Jewelry (like the hand, for example) that could have tipped him off. Of course, JE did not identify it as a kiddush cup, the sitters did. Is it common for non Jews to have a silver cup? A kiddush cup is bascially a ceremonial silver wine glass.
 
In my family, I can immediately name three elderly women who I know have cut down trees. All three of them are unafraid of outdoor labor, and do not consider it "man's work."

In the case of one of the women, she cut down a tree during the Great Depression. That was a time when money was scarce, and few people had money to hire anyone to do anything.

In the case of another lady, she cut down a small tree in her back yard after it had been destroyed by lightning.

These women weren't lumberjacks; they basically just did their own landscaping.

Consequently, the "cut down a tree" guess doesn't seem to me to be all that remarkable.
 
Why wouldn't the dead relative know the proper term?

If "they" can send the image of a kiddush cup, then they can send the image of the words "kiddush cup" as well.

If "they" can tell JE that "it's got his name on it", then why can't they tell him the proper name of the cup and the name of the person.

This makes no sense to me.
 
renata said:
Psst- Claus- not David's star- "Star of David"
Click to expand...

It's called "David's Star" in Danish! :p (farts in your general direction)

renata said:
aka "Magen David".
Click to expand...

...which, in Danish, actually means "the sexual partner of David" (if David was an animal). Had it been an "å", it would have been "Mågen David", "David the Seagull".

Yes, Danish is a strange language.... :D

Carry on.

renata said:
If this reading was performed in Long Island, which has a huge Jewish community, it was not unreasonable to guess the ethnicity.
Click to expand...

Far from it. There are over one million Jews in New York.
 
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