• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Intelligent Design

Has it been clarified enough, yet, to remove your confusion in the end?


ETA: It really is as simple as... 1) JoeBentley made a false claim, which I quoted and 2) refuted, (why cede the high ground both intellectually and rationally, after all, especially when dealing with that which can be easily dealt with without needing to do so?) then I moved on and 3) responded to the OP. Others later ignored the quoted claim and decided to rip a phrase out of context from the refutation that mirrored that from JoeBentley's claim to come up with something of a nonsensical position to question me about.

I'm sorry I can't afford a full page ad in the New York Times to let the entire world know that you were right and I was wrong. I might be able to get you another trophy and ribbon.

I still have literally no clue what exact problem you had with my statement outside of pure semantics and pedantics, but it's obvious you are not only right but IT IS SUPER IMPORTANT.
 
You mean a beaver.



Dave



Christopher McCandless,
McCandless hiked into the Alaska wilderness in April 1992 and died there in late August of that year. McCandless, of course, was the 24-year-old subject of the Jon Krakauer best-selling book "Into the Wild," which later became a 2007 movie starring Emile Hirsch.

He poisoned himself by getting mixed up and eating the wrong type of berries. If the film is to be believed he graduated college and instead of starting a career decided to f@"& it all off and travel around America, probably to find himself. On his travels he ultimately rejected any attempt by other people to get him to join them and settle. But you get the sense he really had no clue what he was doing and ended up killing himself due to his own ignorance. You can't just piss off into Alaska on your own with no proper equipment or experience and expect to survive.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
He poisoned himself by getting mixed up and eating the wrong type of berries.

He died from rabbit starvation. His body fat reserves were completely depleted.

In the movie he tried and failed to cross a river overflown with the Spring thaw. 700 yards down the stream there was a manually operated cable crossing to use in emergencies like that, fact he would have learnt had he gotten a map of the park and not a general traffic map for the whole region.

An American romantic hero :rolleyes: My darwiness!
 
What I meant was that Intelligent Design isn't some real opinion that people actually hold. It's a marketing ploy. It was specifically and intentionally (and openly admitted to being) created to ... ...
People do believe in marketing ploys and intentionally created falsehoods. Just look at any evangelical faith healer.
 
There don't have to be all those gradual changes. For example, the offspring of an insect could have an extra pair of legs compared with the parent due to the replication of a section of DNA, there would not need to be several generations with increasing proportions of the extra pair of legs.
Having one extra pair of legs identical to the first ones is the shortest and easiest path. Radically changing the design of legs is a long and difficult journey, if an advantage compared to previous versions needs to be constantly maintained.
 
Really liked the post except I'm not sure about the hilited bit. A brain or maybe a neural network is not mathematically functional in the same way a set of logic gates are I think. At least I remember reading that the state of and result that a neural network creates based on its inputs is not entirely predictable?

Just a small derail. But interesting point in your post.


You're correct. Neurons don't actually work like logic gates do. So what I was doing was looking for what they do have in common, along with the basic building block units of all other systems that have been demonstrated to be computationally universal (capable of any computation a digital computer, or more technically a Universal Turing Machine, can perform).

That simplest common aspect appears to be nonlinear behavior; a small change in input can cause no change in output, or a large change, depending on the states of other inputs. If instead, all neurons or logic gates could do was output the average of all their inputs, they wouldn't be nearly as useful.

Linear systems can perform a lot of computations. The lens of the eye (or of a camera), for instance, sorts incoming photons, no matter where on the surface of the lens they happen to strike, based on the direction they came from. That's how a focused image is created. But as far as I know, lenses or collections of lenses aren't capable of universal computation. You couldn't make a collection of lenses run Minecraft*, for instance, no matter how many lenses you used in how complex an arrangement. To do that you'd have to include elements that were nonlinear, such as optical switches.

As for the outcome of such a system often being unpredictable, that's true of all universal computing systems, and it's an important clue (though not proof) that a system might be computationally universal. You might look at the extremely simple rules of, for instance, Wolfram's Rule 110, and think that it shouldn't be hard to predict how a given starting state would behave. But because Rule 110 is computationally universal, running it with some particular starting state and answering some specific question about its future behavior (such as whether or not it will eventually start repeating itself) might turn out to be equivalent to computing whether a certain 10,000-digit number is prime. The only known way to learn what the system will do is to run it, or run some other system that simulates its operation step by step.

(Of course, that doesn't mean all possible starting states are unpredictable, even if the system is potentially universal. For instance, if you run Rule 110 with a starting state of all "white" cells, nothing will ever happen. And we try pretty hard to design our computer programs so that their behavior is predictable.)

*I use that example because Minecraft itself is computationally universal. You can build structures within the rules of Minecraft that are equivalent to Turing machines or other computationally universal devices. So, any system that can run Minecraft must itself be computationally universal as well.
 
Last edited:
Having one extra pair of legs identical to the first ones is the shortest and easiest path. Radically changing the design of legs is a long and difficult journey, if an advantage compared to previous versions needs to be constantly maintained.

Again, one-dimensional thinking. If the environment changes, the optimum changes, so the definition of "advantage" changes.

Dave
 
He died from rabbit starvation. His body fat reserves were completely depleted.

In the movie he tried and failed to cross a river overflown with the Spring thaw. 700 yards down the stream there was a manually operated cable crossing to use in emergencies like that, fact he would have learnt had he gotten a map of the park and not a general traffic map for the whole region.

An American romantic hero :rolleyes: My darwiness!

Poor guy. I think one of my greatest pieces of good fortune is that I can survive and prosper in the reality I find myself in. It looks like he wasn't that lucky.

Dave
 
Christopher McCandless,
McCandless hiked into the Alaska wilderness in April 1992 and died there in late August of that year. McCandless, of course, was the 24-year-old subject of the Jon Krakauer best-selling book "Into the Wild," which later became a 2007 movie starring Emile Hirsch.

He poisoned himself by getting mixed up and eating the wrong type of berries.

No that's pretty much a total invention by John Krakauer, who is for some reason is oddly obsessed with finding a reason for Mr. McCandless's death that can't be easily chocked up to "He didn't do even the most basic levels of preparation."

The "Wrong Berries" is just one version. At one point (I can't remember if this was before or after) he was convinced it was fungus. And at one point he was sure it was some seeds that raised his L-canavanine levels. For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui doesn't fit that narrative.

The reality is more simple and either more tragic or more stupid or both depending on how you look at it. He went totally unprepared without the most basic levels of supplies or training or situational awareness into one of the harshest environments in the world and starved to death.
 
Last edited:
... For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide ...

Agreed, to that point. Doesn't he deserve his own sceptical thread? I was surprised at the time the topic wasn't discussed here but briefly.
 
Agreed, to that point. Doesn't he deserve his own sceptical thread? I was surprised at the time the topic wasn't discussed here but briefly.

I'm pretty sure we did at one point, probably around the time the movie did.

But yeah we're probably getting dangerously close to hijacking this thread so we'll leave this for another time.
 
I'm pretty sure we did at one point, probably around the time the movie did.

But yeah we're probably getting dangerously close to hijacking this thread so we'll leave this for another time.


Perhaps we can assume McCandless was a believer in Intelligent Design, and thought himself capable of all kinds of feats in consequence. If we throw in that line "God will never give me something to do that I'm not up to", that is so popular with the faithful we are on a winner and the thread is back on track.:D
 
No that's pretty much a total invention by John Krakauer, who is for some reason is oddly obsessed with finding a reason for Mr. McCandless's death that can't be easily chocked up to "He didn't do even the most basic levels of preparation."

The "Wrong Berries" is just one version. At one point (I can't remember if this was before or after) he was convinced it was fungus. And at one point he was sure it was some seeds that raised his L-canavanine levels. For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui doesn't fit that narrative.

The reality is more simple and either more tragic or more stupid or both depending on how you look at it. He went totally unprepared without the most basic levels of supplies or training or situational awareness into one of the harshest environments in the world and starved to death.

At least from watching the "Into the Wild" movie I concluded that there was nothing insightful or inspirational to be gained from McCandless's story. Restless and clueless young person decides to find himself in the (fictional) romance of the Alaskan wildness. Refuses to learn necessary skills or to join others who have more practical experience. Dies.

IMHO no more interesting or provocative than learning someone died in a traffic accident because they did not look both ways before attempting to cross the street.
 
No that's pretty much a total invention by John Krakauer, who is for some reason is oddly obsessed with finding a reason for Mr. McCandless's death that can't be easily chocked up to "He didn't do even the most basic levels of preparation."

The "Wrong Berries" is just one version. At one point (I can't remember if this was before or after) he was convinced it was fungus. And at one point he was sure it was some seeds that raised his L-canavanine levels. For some reason Krakauer deeply needs McCandless's death to be via some one in a million, weird quirk of fate that could have befallen anyone. In simple terms he needs it to not be his fault. He's fully bought into the "Tragic Folk Hero" image of McCandless and a death which essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui doesn't fit that narrative.

The reality is more simple and either more tragic or more stupid or both depending on how you look at it. He went totally unprepared without the most basic levels of supplies or training or situational awareness into one of the harshest environments in the world and starved to death.
ha, ok. thanks for that. Never knew that, though it appears I had seen through the directors artistic license since by the end of the film, to put it in your words (which was what I felt but could not quite articulate as well as you) I felt:
essentially amounts to a long, slow suicide via a mixture of stupidity caused by idealism and rich white boy ennui

And sorry, derail over.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom