In CONCLUSION of the Carlos Swett Affair

[Patricio Elicer]

I just posted some of my thoughts on the case a while ago at the SC Forums, and I'm going to post them here as well.

_____

Well, I've been following this Carlos/Kramer affair with some interest, both here and at the JREF forums.

Although Carlos has a long and well known history of lies and false accusations against many of those who have debunked/exposed his silly claims, and supported the JREF on the no-viability of his application, I think that in this particular "paragraph dispute" case, chances are that he is right and Kramer is wrong.

Note that I said "Kramer is wrong" and not that "Kramer lied". I have just come to know Kramer through his posts at the JREF forums. Apart from that I don't know anything else about him. But one thing is certain: he's no fool. And only a fool whould've lied on saying he included the paragraph in the letter, knowing that the beligerant other party is in possesion of the letter he can show the world to expose him.

IMO, the likely scenario is that Kramer did not include the said paraghaph, and when composing his explanatory post at the JREF forums, he didn't bother to check his computer files about the case and his memory betrayed him into thinking he had indeed included the paragraph, while in reality he had not.

It's so bad that he has remained silent after the letter was finally published. It would be very healthy that he drops by the forums again to either apologize for his mistake or to re-affirm that he indeed included the paragraph (thus implying that the scanned version was doctored).

BTW, there's evidence that the envelope was altered by someone on a first attempt to publish it on the internet. On page 4 of this thread (SC Forums), about 2/3 way down the page, latinijral posted a link to the envelope where Carlos' home address is missing. Exactly 13 minutes later, he edited the post to remove the link. I saved it to my HD at the last second before it was withdrawn, with the intention of analizing it more closely because of the oddity that it had no street address.

This does not prove that the letter itself was doctored of course, but proves that that work can easily be done, and that it is well within the subjects' procedures to alter the evidences. I concede the undestandable fact that maybe Carlos wanted that his home address was not made public, but as understandable as that may be, it is not right to alter any bit of evidence presented to defend a case.

Regarding the letter, note that is was scanned in simple black & white mode, not color, not grey-scale. The JREF often use mildly colored paper in their corespondance.

[edited to add italics to "knowing", and to add "SC Forums" in brackets]

 

[Prolix]

"SC Forums"

What are the "SC Forums"?

Thanks

 

[Prolix]

Skeptical Community

Nevermind. Thanks

 

[Win]

Ok, a explanation of the discrepancy. First of all, Kramer does not keep hard copies of form response letters. He has boilerplate letters on his computer, and just changes the names, prints off a copy, and puts it in the mail. It's similar to the method I use for printing "thank you for your membership donation" letters. We don't keep hard copies or electronic copies of form letters, but simply mark the original letter as receiving a response.

Once a response has been sent to the applicant, a file is opened with the applicant's letter and if a letter has been sent to him by Kramer, it gets a red dot label by the name signifying it's been closed and no dot if it's still open waiting for an application. (Or vice versa....I forget which, it's not important for sake of this discussion.)

You will note the letter scanned above is addressed to Mr. Salas. Kramer had two files...one for Swett, and one for Salas. The scanned letter could have one of two explanations: It was the first letter sent to the applicant as there was no indication to Kramer a response had ever been sent, OR, Kramer found the letter from Salas in the box of letters he followed up with the "if you have already received a response, please ignore this letter" and Carlos altered it. He did not realize until today that Carlos Swett and Carlos Salas were the same person. If he's guilty of anything, it's a clerical error...not a lie. So sue us.

Bottom line: there is no valid claim, the file is closed; never to be reopened. Shall I just lock this thread and we can all move on?

Man oh man.

You'd think that they were dealing with disbursing a 50 buck prize from a pub quiz night, not a cool million.

Suffice it so say that the manifest lack of professionalism at the JREF just gives ammunition to all those who say that there is no way a million dollars is ever being handed out. If it ever were, the sponsoring party would sue the JREF.

Where's the original claim letter?

Threw it away. Clerical error. Sue us.

Did you keep notes on the claim verification procedure?

Maybe. But if we did, we lost them. Nobody believes crazy woo-woos anyway. Why should we carefully document anything?

But these crazy woo-woos want the million, because the claim they have satisfied the conditions of the challenge. They have contemporaneous records. You don't.

Those records are forgeries. Prove it? Don't have to. The burden of proof is always on the crazy woo-woo, as we all know.

 

[Ceinwyn]

Man oh man.

You'd think that they were dealing with disbursing a 50 buck prize from a pub quiz night, not a cool million.

Suffice it so say that the manifest lack of professionalism at the JREF just gives ammunition to all those who say that there is no way a million dollars is ever being handed out. If it ever were, the sponsoring party would sue the JREF.

Where's the original claim letter?

Threw it away. Clerical error. Sue us.

Did you keep notes on the claim verification procedure?

Maybe. But if we did, we lost them. Nobody believes crazy woo-woos anyway. Why should we carefully document anything?

But these crazy woo-woos want the million, because the claim they have satisfied the conditions of the challenge. They have contemporaneous records. You don't.

Those records are forgeries. Prove it? Don't have to. The burden of proof is always on the crazy woo-woo, as we all know.

Win:

Do you need to be reminded that Carlos's claim was that a paranormal hat flew by the World Trade Center?

I'm sorry, did you believe it was true?

The JREF must get a ton of claims, most I'm sure from people just as misguided and annoying as Carlos. Do you really think they are going to investigate each and every one? Do you really think they have the office space to accommodate the mail, sometimes re-sent, that all these lunatics send them?

Please, be reasonable. The guidelines are spelled out in the Challenge. Carlos is one of many, many claimants who simply do not qualify. If they get a mistaken letter, well damn. Looks like the people who work there are human after all.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Actually, Win has a point. It would lend more credibility to the JREF if they went about this in a more profesional way, but perhaps that is what they are trying to start doing.

Sure, they get a lot of crank letters, but hey, if you offer a million dollars in a field that is full of cranks, what did you expect?

A professional handling of Carlos might not have prevented his vendetta (I suspect he made his claim in order to start a vendetta, at least that is the only rational explanation), but it would have made it much easier to handle.

Hans

 

[steenkh]

I agree with Hans, although I am charmed by the often informal style which is used by JREF, it does cause problems like Carlos.

I am reminded by the fight over the Yellow Bamboo claim some time ago. Because of the informal arrangements, it was unclear what constituted a preliminary test, and who could do it, and it caused a lot of trouble at the time.

 

[CFLarsen]

Do you need to be reminded that Carlos's claim was that a paranormal hat flew by the World Trade Center?

I'm sorry, did you believe it was true?

It doesn't matter what is true, or what the video showed: It simply isn't something that can be tested.

It says so very clearly in the Challenge:

2. Only an actual performance of the stated nature and scope, within the agreed-upon limits, will be accepted. Anecdotal accounts of previous events are not accepted or considered.
Source

It's that simple.

End of story.

 

[Ceinwyn]

Actually, Win has a point. It would lend more credibility to the JREF if they went about this in a more profesional way, but perhaps that is what they are trying to start doing.

Sure, they get a lot of crank letters, but hey, if you offer a million dollars in a field that is full of cranks, what did you expect?

A professional handling of Carlos might not have prevented his vendetta (I suspect he made his claim in order to start a vendetta, at least that is the only rational explanation), but it would have made it much easier to handle.

Hans

If I personally offered a million dollars, you bet I'd weed out the cranks from the credible. And I bet that after so much exposure to them, Randi and his staff know when to take it seriously and when not.

After all this time hearing from Carlos, just from this website (never mind others in which he says the same stuff over and over and over again), I think their repeated ignoring of his bullcrap is perfectly acceptable.

The professional handling Carlos needs is strictly psychological.

 

[steenkh]

It doesn't matter what is true, or what the video showed: It simply isn't something that can be tested.

It says so very clearly in the Challenge:

Quite right, but the problem is that JREF did not follow the challenge rules, and as a courtesy they started critisizing his claim intstead of rejecting it. So Carlos believes that he has a claim until he has received a formal rejection notification. So much for courtesy.

I suspect that if JREF complied and told Carlos that his claim was rejected, he would find something else to hang his hat on. In fact, as I read the much disputed letter from Kramer, it was actually just the letter that Carlos wanted. Except that because of this little sentence that Kramer probably missed out on Carlos' copy, Carlos decided to ignore the entire contents, and consequently still thinks he has a claim!

 

[CFLarsen]

Quite right, but the problem is that JREF did not follow the challenge rules, and as a courtesy they started critisizing his claim intstead of rejecting it. So Carlos believes that he has a claim until he has received a formal rejection notification. So much for courtesy.

What challenge rules did JREF not follow?

I suspect that if JREF complied and told Carlos that his claim was rejected, he would find something else to hang his hat on. In fact, as I read the much disputed letter from Kramer, it was actually just the letter that Carlos wanted. Except that because of this little sentence that Kramer probably missed out on Carlos' copy, Carlos decided to ignore the entire contents, and consequently still thinks he has a claim!

Oh, yes. Which could explain why JREF isn't all that interested in keeping the conversation going. It's like staring at paint drying, and still feel you use your time better...

 

[Ceinwyn]

Carlos sent in a videotape of some bizarre anomaly.

It never met the JREF requirements in the first place.

Carlos is a moron.

 

[steenkh]

What challenge rules did JREF not follow?

That was a bad choice of expression on my part. What I meant is that JREF did not use the challenge rules to kill Carlos' application. Instead Harter started a discussion of the validity of the claim, probably meaning to be nice to Carlos. Carlos thought that he could keep his claim alive by debating with Harter, and he was never told unequivocally that his claim did not live up to the challenge rules.

Kramer's recent letter definitiely told Carlos what standards he must comply to, but Carlos disregarded the entire letter because of the formality that Kramer did not say that the old application was dead. Carlos was probably not interested in reading about rules for new applications.

Anyway, I am convinced that Carlos would find some other formality to keep the claim going in his mind, so there is probably nothing that can be done to please him or his honour.

(Edited to correct sentence that could be misunderstood - again!)

 

[CFLarsen]

steenkh,

Gotcha.

 

[tamiO]

Oh, yes. Which could explain why JREF isn't all that interested in keeping the conversation going. It's like staring at paint drying, and still feel you use your time better...

IMO, The JREF isn't all that interested in keeping the conversation going because Kramer made a mistake and because of his inability to acknowledge the possibility that he might have made a mistake he chose to call Carlos names and ridicule him and go so far as to say Carlos manipulated his letter.

I especially like the way that mistake is now such a small thing and the main point is now being made to be that Carlos never had a claim in the first place. Moving the goalposts anyone?

The fact that Carlos never had a claim in the first place, is not an excuse for Kramer's unprofessional behavior.

The JREF indicates to me that they don't care if they look professional or not, but that flies in the face of Mr. Randi's request that the forum be made to appear more professional to a court of law and the challenge of maintaining their 501c3 status.

The JREF needs to understand that they are human and they are going to make mistakes. Owning up to them correcting procedures and thanking people for pointing them out is what people who command respect do. Insulting people and calling them names shows an incredible lack maturity and in turn reflects badly on them as an organization.

It doesn't make them look bad to their cult followers, but it looks bad to objective people who look in. People who may be ready to donate a large sum of money, but will think twice after reviewing some of the threads here on the JREF forums.

 

[Patricio Elicer]

IMO, at this time Carlos has no interest whatsoever in his application for the million. I think he no longer truly believes in his “paranormal activity”. He has been shown over an over, here and elsewhere, that it was a simple bird passing in front of the camera (a special recognition to Blue Monk, of course)

If he were a man of honor, as he claims, he would’ve acknowledged that he was wrong, given the unmistakable and overwhelming evidence presented by Blue Monk and others. But he chose the easy and dirty way out of accusing him of faking the evidence, the last resort to keep his illusions going and his “honor” intact.

Carlos is infuriated with Randi, the JREF and their supporters because of the way his case was handled. He’s angry because he has been exposed as a creduloid. He’s hurt in his “honor” (in his “pride” I’d say) because of that.

His present motivation is just revenge. He will use every imaginable resort to discredit Randi and the JREF (and their supporters as well), he’s been doing so for a long time now. And he will use the least bit of weakness the JREF shows, for his purpose.

Kramer made a mistake on sending him that letter in the first place. He bothered to explain at length the reasons that led him into that mistake. It was a simple mistake. That letter should’ve never been sent because the case was already closed a long time ago, and Carlos knew it. And yet, he, supposedly a man of honor, promptly used this mistake to accuse the JREF of “lying”, of having “hidden intentions” against him, etc.

I wonder what his definition of honor is.

 

[steenkh]

I especially like the way that mistake is now such a small thing and the main point is now being made to be that Carlos never had a claim in the first place. Moving the goalposts anyone?

What do you mean, moving the goalposts? I assume the goal has always been to win the prize money. Carlos tries to move the goalposts by focusing on formalities that are irrelevant re the real goal.

Kramer's letter would have been stronger with the missing line, but it is not completely invalidated without it. Carlos is told what he should do if he wants to resume the claim. He has not done anything (because he cannot), so the claim is dead, dead, dead.

 

[CFLarsen]

The fact that Carlos never had a claim in the first place, is not an excuse for Kramer's unprofessional behavior.

What in the blue frig are you talking about? Carlos claimed that the video showed a paranormal phenomenon, so he wanted the million bucks.

I have no idea why you are defending Carlos, but I have a pretty good idea that it is not because you think he has a valid complaint.

You have merely grabbed an opportunity to slam JREF.

Shame on you.

His present motivation is just revenge. He will use every imaginable resort to discredit Randi and the JREF (and their supporters as well), he’s been doing so for a long time now. And he will use the least bit of weakness the JREF shows, for his purpose.

Yup. We've seen this before, and Carlos will not be the last. I am saddened to see how easy it is to drum up support for a hate cause.

 

[steenkh]

(Removed because I accidentally reposted my last post here)

 

[ceptimus]

The unprofessional behavour was in sending a letter two years aftrer the event, that offered to 'expidite' the claim. The unprofessionalism has been extended further in the claims about the 'missing paragraph'. Simple enough mistakes, but unprofessional nethertheless.

Most everyone here agrees that Carlos' tape did not and never will qualify as a contender for the $1 million challenge. However, that doesn't excuse unprofessional behavour form the JREF.