Important Question about Diabetes

[Rolfe]

This seems to be repeated history of 10 years. But why persisted high sugar with higher doses/insulin & better controlled on lowering the dose & discontinuing insulin? I think, my 3,4,5 questions in other topic may hold some sense.

You never explained why this wasn't the Somogyi effect.

Numbers, Kumar. It all comes down to the numbers. Nobody can possibly get their heads round a diabetic stabilisation problem without lots and lots of lovely numbers. Serial glucose measurements, glycosylated haemoglobins and the exact details of insulin or other dose at the relevant time. For a start.

We can take it. Just post the data. Even if it's in bongo-bongo-land superseded-30-years-ago gravimetric units, we can take it. (The conversion factor is 0.056 for anyone interested.) And Dr. ThirdTwin won't even need that because the Merikans are still in the dark ages too.

You must have one hell of a lot of numbers accumulated, with all these observations. Bring 'em on.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

Reading again the story, I suspect this case was originally attempted treated with insulin which is an error if insulin resistance has not been addressed. [snip]

I agree entirely, Hans. My exact conclusions, when I read the tale. But....

Doesn't mean that excess insulin causes either an increase in blood glucose, or insulin resistance.

'Cos it doesn't.

Also doesn't mean that it's even close to a good idea to make your own decisions about treatment without the assent of the physician managing the case. If you're not satisfied with the physician, find a new one. NEVER try to go it alone.

Rolfe.

 

[Kumar]

Kumar,

When, exactly, did you stop your insulin?
What type and dose of insulin where you taking?
What, on average, was your blood glucose level at the time you stopped the insulin?

BillyJoe
(Okay, swap "your friend" for "you" in the above if you prefer)

Reg: ref. case: Pre-insulin period you can read in this thread. After that(aroubd one year) no insulin, 50 % oral medicines(just 1.5 mg amryl(half tab of 3 mg), no senstizer/insulin as no need, no other than homeopathic ones). BS levels ranges F:80-150/PP:130-200 (sometimes bit above but soon return). All other tests clear even trig, lipids, kidney, heart, good circulation & senses...mean all other mostly normal. Least excercise & less diet control otherwise can improve furthur.

Pls assess this case condition.

 

[Kumar]

I agree entirely, Hans. My exact conclusions, when I read the tale. But....Rolfe.

No Somogyi effect for sure. No/can't mistake/error in prescriptions as per PRESCRIPTION/feedback to them, means: they were not wrong as per available theory.

Pls check my new question as may be relevant.

 

[Rolfe]

BS levels ranges F:80-150/PP:130-200 (sometimes bit above but soon return).

Translation for those of us who actually made it to the latter part of the 20th century.

Fasting blood glucose, 4.5 to 8.4 mmol/l
Post-prandial blood glucose, 7.3 to 11.2 mmol/l

(I wonder if he really means blood glucose? I'll bet he doesn't, I'll bet he means plasma glucose. I also wonder how far "bit above" reaches, and how often.)

It's a start, but I'd still like to see the serial measurements and the glycosylated haemoglobin values.

Personally, I wouldn't be terribly happy about these numbers as regards long-term health, though they could be a lot worse of course. But they absolutely support Hans' theory. Somebody was started on insulin unnecessarily, and things went slightly pear-shaped. Possibly involving Somogyi overswings. He has then made some entirely off-the-wall deductions from some very ill-understood facts.

Rolfe.

 

[Kumar]

Insulin is only normally administered to very progressed cases of type 2 diabetes. Reading again the story, I suspect this case was originally attempted treated with insulin which is an error if insulin resistance has not been addressed.

Wrong, If initial very high BG,(or not also) good doctors prefer to prescribe insulin initially to give rest to pancreas for better future performane. They can also prescribe in between of oral treatments for this purpose. But all these practices are good at some initial 4/5 years..or so. No mistake/error in their prescribed prescriptions as per ffedback to them.

Apparantly (although we have too little information to be sure), the case was later treated properly with insuling sensitizing (oral) medicine, no doubt dietary and other lifestyle changes, possible insulin secretion stimulating (oral) medicine, and has now resolved to a state where BG can be kepr reasonably well regulated without insulin administration.

No diet & lifestyle change, least physical excercise, irregular food habits--just minimum oral doses(+some TRs). Why he never had hypoglymic shocks previously when on insulin & more medicines but just had persistant high BG?

An account of a successful treatment in spite of the initial error, which, unfortunately has left the patient with an apparantly unbrakable conviction that insulin causes diabetes .

Irrelevant.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Wrong, If initial very high BG,(or not also) good doctors prefer to prescribe insulin initially to give rest to pancreas for better future performane.

They certainly do not! At least not where I am. Berhaps in India, but hey, I hear the good doctors even use homeopathy there .

They can also prescribe in between of oral treatments for this purpose. But all these practices are good at some initial 4/5 years..or so. No mistake/error in their prescribed prescriptions as per ffedback to them.

Total nonsense. If the patient is insensitive to insulin ans already has high insulin levels, extra insulin won't help one bit.

No diet & lifestyle change, least physical excercise, irregular food habits--just minimum oral doses(+some TRs).

OK, patient is an idiot, then, but apparantly the oral medicine is enough to do the trick, so far. Won't last, though, then it is eye damage, amputations, heart disease.

Why he never had hypoglymic shocks previously when on insulin & more medicines but just had persistant high BG?

Insulin resistance, probably, but nobody can say without examining the patient.

Irrelevant.

For the disease story, yes. For this discussion, no.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

They certainly do not! At least not where I am. Berhaps in India, but hey, I hear the good doctors even use homeopathy there .

Rolfe, may better comment on this. Just re-check. As far as allopathy is in question any one country may not matter much as this is a wordwide consortium/coordination. I don't know about any country, but good doctors may be finding it good.


Total nonsense. If the patient is insensitive to insulin ans already has high insulin levels, extra insulin won't help one bit.

In this you agree that additional insulin can be bit differant. Anyone rarely agree for this. Anyway i was not talking about only IR.

OK, patient is an idiot, then, but apparantly the oral medicine is enough to do the trick, so far. Won't last, though, then it is eye damage, amputations, heart disease.

Some TRs may do all these. Anyway, since he is better than others similar type cases, as yet, so other looks bit idots as of now.

Insulin resistance, probably, but nobody can say without examining the patient.

As i said, do you mean; exess insulin is the cause of IR otherwise what??

For the disease story, yes. For this discussion, no.

Seeing is believing. Practicals are better than theories.

 

[Goshawk]

Well, here you have it, folks: Kumar's basic attitude and mindset, in a nutshell. No more need be said, really.

Anyway, since he is better than others similar type cases, as yet, so other looks bit idots as of now.

Doctor: "Kumar, you have diabetes. You need to follow this special diet, and you need to exercise and watch your weight."

Kumar: Does not follow the special diet. Does not exercise. Does not watch his weight. Nevertheless, he beats the statistical odds (some people do), and his diabetes remains under control.

Kumar: "Hah! I have ignored all the doctor's advice, and my diabetes is under much better control than others' diabetes is, who all followed the doctor's advice. Thus, they are all idiots for following the doctor's advice. Had they but known, they could have ignored the doctor's advice and their diabetes would have gotten better."

 

[Kumar]

Translation for those of us who actually made it to the latter part of the 20th century.

Fasting blood glucose, 4.5 to 8.4 mmol/l
Post-prandial blood glucose, 7.3 to 11.2 mmol/l

(I wonder if he really means blood glucose? I'll bet he doesn't, I'll bet he means plasma glucose. I also wonder how far "bit above" reaches, and how often.)

It's a start, but I'd still like to see the serial measurements and the glycosylated haemoglobin values.

Personally, I wouldn't be terribly happy about these numbers as regards long-term health, though they could be a lot worse of course. But they absolutely support Hans' theory. Somebody was started on insulin unnecessarily, and things went slightly pear-shaped. Possibly involving Somogyi overswings. He has then made some entirely off-the-wall deductions from some very ill-understood facts.

Rolfe.

Rolfe,

I mentioned values as per units given in today's medlineplus information:

Normal Values

64 to 110 mg/dL

Note: mg/dL = milligrams per deciliter

Fasting blood glucose level -- diabetes is diagnosed if higher than 126 mg/dL on two occasions.

Random (non-fasting) blood glucose level -- diabetes is suspected if higher than 200 mg/dL and accompanied by the classic symptoms of increased thirst, urination, and fatigue. (This test must be confirmed with a fasting blood glucose test.)

Oral glucose tolerance test -- diabetes is diagnosed if glucose level is higher than 200 mg/dL after 2 hours (This test is used more for type 2 diabetes.)http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001214.htm

 

[Rolfe]

I mentioned values as per units given in today's medlineplus information:

In case you didn't notice, I mentioned above that the USA has not yet managed to drag itself into the 1970s in this respect. That site you quote is a US one.

This is why clinical biochemists in the USA are working in a ghetto and nobody else will read their publications. It's just that the US is so big, they don't notice.

Now, in case you didn't get it before, INSULIN RESISTANCE CAUSES HIGH INSULIN. Not the other way around.

And this business about resting the pancreas is NOT normal medical practice in developed countries, to the best of my knowledge. Though the human medics may be best to comment here, as dogs and cats are known to be different from humans.

Rolfe.

 

[Deetee]

Kumar you are correct - in everything you say.

High insulin levels cause insulin resistance.
Gastric acid causes diabetes.
Tissue salts provoke silicosis.
Metal foil hats do not prevent remote viewing.
Homeopathy is the only true way to everlasting life.


Aaaah.....
I feel better already.

 

[Kumar]

Now, in case you didn't get it before, INSULIN RESISTANCE CAUSES HIGH INSULIN. Not the other way around.

If INSULIN RESISTANCE CAUSES HIGH INSULIN, then why a person with I do not experiance hypoglycemic shots & why he still persist high blood sugar?

And this business about resting the pancreas is NOT normal medical practice in developed countries, to the best of my knowledge. Though the human medics may be best to comment here, as dogs and cats are known to be different from humans.
But what do you think, can it be good or bad consideration i.e. to prescribe some insulin to give rest to pacreas?

 

[MRC_Hans]

If INSULIN RESISTANCE CAUSES HIGH INSULIN, then why a person with I do not experiance hypoglycemic shots & why he still persist high blood sugar?

Because with insulin resistance, the insulin does not work on him, for crying out loud. With high insulin resistance, you do not get hypos because you cannot process glucose, of course. Do try some simple logic.

But what do you think, can it be good or bad consideration i.e. to prescribe some insulin to give rest to pacreas?

It is bad. The problem is high BG. until you get the BG down, you won't rest the pancreas.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

But what do you think, can it be good or bad consideration i.e. to prescribe some insulin to give rest to pacreas?

It is bad. The problem is high BG. until you get the BG down, you won't rest the pancreas.

But during intial stages it controls BG instantly bu insulin, & then no medications/insulin for next many years still controlled. During initial stages of taking/starting insulin at any level of BG--BG comes down for some time. IR develops only after if it more than as required.