I really need to rant regarding Browne's death

[Brattus]

How about bilking millions of people out of 800 dollars for a phone reading that is a bunch of crap.

She didn't bilk them. They bilked themselves.
They called her remember.
They knew the price beforehand.
They called to be placed on a waiting list.
They waited for months to get and pay for a 15 to 20 minute phone call from her.

That is not being bilked. That is being stupid, lazy and gullible.

 

[nvidiot]

Blame the victim much?

 

[Brattus]

I NEVER agreed with her outrageous price for a reading, I thought most of her predictions were off the wall and my first instinct about her was that she is no good, but I let myself be brainwashed by her books.

You let yourself be brainwashed? I love it.

So none of it was your doing? You didn't believe but evil ol' Sylvia somehow made you buy her books. uhm?

You know the first step to not repeating the same stupid behavior
is owning your responsibility.
You were looking for someone to tell you what to do.
Someone to make decisions for you.
It's alright. It just means you are a flawed human being like the rest of us.

But own it.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I believe a lot of people who go to psychics, if not all of them, have depression. This is not a conclusion that was reached lightly but the result of many years of studying so-called psychics. This is an angle that is not often explored, unfortunately. Or, like the poster above, these believers have had some series of unfortunate events in their lives. The vast majority are unhappy for some reason, if not several major reasons.

I once attended a taping and, from what a lot of the questions posed to Browne, I wondered if the questioners weren't clinically depressed. Or just depressed temporarily. A lot said things like "I feel like I am stuck in a rut and nothing is going well for me. What should I do to get out of it?", which is a classic symptom. The "stuck in a rut" thing was nearly a theme, that's how often someone said it. Why aren't we in the skeptical community talking about this?

Forgive the armchair psychiatry but I believe that most of the typical audience for a Sylvia Browne show should forget about seeing a psychic and, instead, see a doctor.

And ask their doctor if Zoloft is right for them.

So I don't hold these people responsible. At least not fully responsible.

 

[Brattus]

Blame the victim much?

They called her.
Sylvia didn't force them to call.
They can't be victims if they go to her.
That is why what she did was legal.

Was it the right way to make a living? No.
Was it the right way to treat your fellow human beings? No.

Any way you slice it.
They did it to themselves.

 

[Brattus]

I believe a lot of people who go to psychics, if not all of them, have depression. This is an angle that is not often explored, unfortunately. Or, like the poster above, have had some series of unfortunate events in their lives. The vast majority are unhappy for some reason, if not several major reasons.

I once attended a taping and, from what a lot of the questions posed to Browne, I wondered if the questioners weren't clinically depressed. Or just depressed temporarily. A lot said things like "I feel like I am stuck in a rut and nothing is going well for me. What should I do to get out of it?", which is a classic symptom. The "stuck in a rut" thing was nearly a theme, that's how often someone said it.

Forgive the armchair psychiatry but I believe that most of the typical audience for a Sylvia Browne show should forget about seeing a psychic and, instead, see a doctor.

And ask their doctor if Zoloft is right for them.

So I don't hold these people responsible. At least not fully responsible.

Well said. I agree.
But
They are kind of fully responsible.

Sylvia preyed on the weak, sick and depressed. No doubt about that.
But they had to have known.
If they are so mentally ill they can't tell what's on their TV from reality then Ok.
But that only counts for a very few.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

The list of depression symptoms that I noticed among Browne's fans is too long to give justice to in one post but here are a few.

Loneliness- Most of these people are lonely romantically or otherwise. A ton of them are single- have been single for years- and unlucky in love. A frequent questions Browne would get is "When will I find a boyfriend?".

A lot have troubled relationships with family and friends, another source of constant questions. You won't believe the number of times someone asked things like "My daughter doesn't speak to me. When will we stop being estranged?"

Lack of success and happiness at their job- A lot were unhappy and unfulfilled in their careers. A lot were unemployed or barely employed. A good deal were working-class and unable to make ends meet. Both a source of depression and a symptom of it.

The feeling of being cursed- You won't believe how many people told Browne about this one. Again, a tell-tale sign.

Inability to tell reality from fantasy- They go to a psychic, often to ask that psychic about angels, fairies, curses and demons and (I swear this is real) a talking fish possessed by a ghost. Yes, someone once actually asked about that. Really.


Just a thought. Maybe if we did a better job of preventing and treating depression and other mental illnesses, we would see a decrease in the number of people who go to mediums, psychics, palm-readers, etc.

Maybe if we were nicer and more caring to one another, we wouldn't have so many lonely people. It is rare to find a victim of psychics who isn't lonely, on some level and to some extent.

Maybe if we didn't have so many people living in poverty, this would not happen as often. The poor can't seek treatment for their mental and physical illnesses. And their poverty is a source of many of their personal problems in the first place.

Maybe the fault is in ourselves. Maybe the society we created is partially to blame.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Well said. I agree.
But
They are kind of fully responsible.

Sylvia preyed on the weak, sick and depressed. No doubt about that.
But they had to have known.
If they are so mentally ill they can't tell what's on their TV from reality then Ok.
But that only counts for a very few.

In addition to potential depression, some of them have confirmed mental illnesses. Yes, diagnosed mental illness.

With all due respect, you weren't there- so you didn't hear the number of people who confessed to Sylvia that they have bipolar disorder, anxiety, panic disorders, even schizophrenia. Some of them have to take heavy meds for it.

And those were the people lucky enough to have received an officially diagnosis. How many more are undiagnosed? And how many know they have it- but weren't comfortable saying so on national television? If you did a real survey of the people who go to psychics, a good segment of them probably would have a fairly serious or absolutely serious mental disorder. Not all, no, but a chunk.

We shouldn't judge these people for having poor judgement. The very definition of schizophrenia is seeing things that aren't there and believing in crazy stuff.


In addition to that, nearly all of them have experienced a death. When I attended the taping, I was stunned to realize that the only person there who hadn't just lost someone was...me. And potentially Browne and Montel Williams.

And these are very sad and painful stories (not that death is ever pleasant). Murders, suicides, manslaughter, tragic accidents. A lot of the deaths were sudden, unexpected, untimely and a lot of the victims were very young. I particularly remember the teenaged girlfriend of a teenager who had died in an unexpected car crash and a woman whose mentally ill son had committed suicide after years of struggling with his illness.

In addition to that, a good deal of these people had some unfinished business with their deceased relatives. I remember one person asking Browne "My brother died 12 years ago and I've felt guilty all these 12 years. Does he forgive me?" (it wasn't specified what for.) Another felt that her departed mother was unhappy with the care she and her siblings had provided while the mother was ill and dying. In a guilty and regretful tone, she asked if the mother resented her for not taking good care of her. Sylvia assured her that Mom was grateful...and further added "Oh, you were great to her! You went above and beyond. She's really pleased, cause some people do nothing!". The woman burst into tears, either of joy and relief or guilt. That one made me sad.

Under those circumstances, it is no wonder that grief clouded their judgement.

 

[desertgal]

We shouldn't judge these people for having poor judgement. The very definition of schizophrenia is seeing things that aren't there and believing in crazy stuff.

Not the same thing, imo. Schizophrenics don't display poor judgment. They are unable to judge rationally. "Poor judgment" suggests one is able to judge rationally and fails to do so.

While it's true Browne preyed on the vulnerable and grieving, Brattus has a valid point. There are probably quite a few of her victims who were willing victims, i.e. having the ability to judge rationally and literally choosing not to do so because they preferred to believe Browne. For whatever reason, even just liking the concept of psychic ability. Browne can't be held responsible that many of her believers CHOSE to believe. She can only be held responsible for her role in a two role charade.

 

[Drs_Res]

Defintely not safe for work, but quite relevant.

FTFY

Then there was this broadcast on a different network later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5PpNeOu8gs

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

While it's true Browne preyed on the vulnerable and grieving, Brattus has a valid point. There are probably quite a few of her victims who were willing victims, i.e. having the ability to judge rationally and literally choosing not to do so because they preferred to believe Browne. For whatever reason, even just liking the concept of psychic ability. Browne can't be held responsible that many of her believers CHOSE to believe. She can only be held responsible for her role in a two role charade.

Having seen these people being victimized first-hand, I have a hard time blaming a lot of them.

How can you blame a mother who lost a schizophrenic son to suicide for seeing Browne to find out if he's "on the other side"?'

One that really sticks with me. A woman with a mental illness- I believe she was also schizophrenic- told Browne how hard her life was, how mentally tortured she was, how long she had been taking pills with little success and asked when she would be cured of it. Browne told her "Next year", which made the poor woman burst into tears of joy and relief.

The burden is on Browne there. As soon as she heard the woman had schizophrenia, she should have stepped away and said something like "You need to see a psychiatrist about that". The burden is not on the woman to not see Browne.

Browne has no business telling her "Yes, you will be cured." Browne has no business telling her "No, you won't."

Browne has no business telling her anything.

 

[Hungry81]

You let yourself be brainwashed? I love it.

So none of it was your doing? You didn't believe but evil ol' Sylvia somehow made you buy her books. uhm?

You know the first step to not repeating the same stupid behavior
is owning your responsibility.
You were looking for someone to tell you what to do.
Someone to make decisions for you.
It's alright. It just means you are a flawed human being like the rest of us.

But own it.

This is pretty much uncalled for. The poster recognises their past mistakes and has moved on.
Maybe stop with the psychoanalysis its not needed at the moment.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

In addition to what I've said above, people fail to understand what a persuasive person Browne was at times. Perhaps people who knew her can confirm this. She had a certain charisma about her and could seem quite nice and charming.

Having seen her in person, I understand how she could be a leader of a cult or, to be fair, a semi-cult. There was something about her at times.

You can see how people were sucked in by her personality. She did have the power to draw people in, whether it was through her own person or her printed media. If you didn't know better, you could be convinced by her one-sided presentation of herself.

And Montel was enormously handsome, dynamic and charismatic. He had a real presence, an intimidating one.

People were star-struck by both him and her.

 

[570Lesa]

This is pretty much uncalled for. The poster recognises their past mistakes and has moved on.
Maybe stop with the psychoanalysis its not needed at the moment.

Thanks, I appreciate that.
Actually I have been looking around for a new messiah to follow, compared to Sylvia, Brattus is looking pretty good at the moment. Oh Wise Brattus please show me the error of my ways!
But seriously, where did I not own it? I came here and told the truth, I made a educated guess as to how it could have happened and YES I was diagnosed with depression ( which is not uncommon for single mothers of severely autistic children )
Brattus, as much as you may try, you don't intimidate me. Sorry!

 

[RSLancastr]

Citations for Browne's claims in the Klass case? If true, this is as despicable as anything connected with this person. More so in fact.

IIRC, Browne stated in an interview (or perhaps it was in one of her books) that she had been consulted on the Klaas case by a detective on the case, and she had given him correct information, including the first name of the kidnapper/murderer

I spoke with Polly Klaas's father Marc Klaas on the phone regarding Browne's claim that she had helped in Polly's case, and he explicitly stated that she had not, and that he was certain that he would have heard about it if she had.

I published an email on Stop Sylvia which mentioned this claim, and that was referenced in a later email I receiced from Linda Rossi, Browne's Business manager, here:

http://www.stopsylvia.com/articles/email_lindarossi.shtml

In regard to your other interrogative email concerning Sylvia’s participation in the Polly Klaas case, Sylvia worked on this case with detectives whose identity she was asked to keep confidential. Just as in each and every one of her private consultations, her clients’ identities are kept strictly confidential unless they give her permission to use their name in any published work. Try going to a psychologist’s, doctor’s, lawyer’s, or priest’s office and ask to see evidence or the names of people they have counseled or spoken to and see what kind of a response you get.

 

[Resume]

IIRC, Browne stated in an interview (or perhaps it was in one of her books) that she had been consulted on the Klaas case by a detective on the case, and she had given him correct information, including the first name of the kidnapper/murderer

I spoke with Polly Klaas's father Marc Klaas on the phone regarding Browne's claim that she had helped in Polly's case, and he explicitly stated that she had not, and that he was certain that he would have heard about it if she had.

I published an email on Stop Sylvia which mentioned this claim, and that was referenced in a later email I receiced from Linda Rossi, Browne's Business manager, here:

http://www.stopsylvia.com/articles/email_lindarossi.shtml

Thanks Robert.

Just as in each and every one of her private consultations, her clients’ identities are kept strictly confidential unless they give her permission to use their name in any published work. Try going to a psychologist’s, doctor’s, lawyer’s, or priest’s office and ask to see evidence or the names of people they have counseled or spoken to and see what kind of a response you get.

Yeah, sure.

 

[ExMinister]

IIRC, Browne stated in an interview (or perhaps it was in one of her books) that she had been consulted on the Klaas case by a detective on the case, and she had given him correct information, including the first name of the kidnapper/murderer

I spoke with Polly Klaas's father Marc Klaas on the phone regarding Browne's claim that she had helped in Polly's case, and he explicitly stated that she had not, and that he was certain that he would have heard about it if she had.

I published an email on Stop Sylvia which mentioned this claim, and that was referenced in a later email I receiced from Linda Rossi, Browne's Business manager, here:

http://www.stopsylvia.com/articles/email_lindarossi.shtml

Oopsy. Thanks for clarifying. Apologies to SSnape, who obviously recalled this better than I did.

 

[desertgal]

Having seen these people being victimized first-hand, I have a hard time blaming a lot of them.

How can you blame a mother who lost a schizophrenic son to suicide for seeing Browne to find out if he's "on the other side"?'

Did I do that?

One that really sticks with me. A woman with a mental illness- I believe she was also schizophrenic- told Browne how hard her life was, how mentally tortured she was, how long she had been taking pills with little success and asked when she would be cured of it. Browne told her "Next year", which made the poor woman burst into tears of joy and relief.

The burden is on Browne there. As soon as she heard the woman had schizophrenia, she should have stepped away and said something like "You need to see a psychiatrist about that". The burden is not on the woman to not see Browne.

Browne has no business telling her "Yes, you will be cured." Browne has no business telling her "No, you won't."

Browne has no business telling her anything.

I said, clearly, that many of her followers chose to believe her. I didn't say ALL of them...did I? I said schizophrenics lack the ability to judge rationally...didn't I? That makes it obvious I don't lump all her followers into the "chose to believe" category.

I said Browne was responsible for her part...didn't I? I said she preyed on the vulnerable and grieving...didn't I?

I didn't make an inaccurate generalization...did I?

Are you saying that I don't have a valid point that there were/are SB followers who, consciously or subconsciously, chose to believe her?

 

[ExMinister]

You let yourself be brainwashed? I love it.

So none of it was your doing? You didn't believe but evil ol' Sylvia somehow made you buy her books. uhm?

You know the first step to not repeating the same stupid behavior
is owning your responsibility.
You were looking for someone to tell you what to do.
Someone to make decisions for you.
It's alright. It just means you are a flawed human being like the rest of us.

But own it.

First, of all, when someone says "I let myself be" they ARE owning it. She didn't even say "SYLVIA brainwashed me," now did she?

It is the height of arrogance to say, "I am smart, being a skeptic, and you are stupid and lazy for having believed in psychics." Anyway it's wrong too.

Much more accurate to describe a believer as uninformed and gullible. Uninformed and gullible, at least in the U.S., because they see it in friends and family and plastered all over the media all their lives.

There are talk show hosts and various media all promoting psychics and mediums; if they aren't promoting them, they certainly seem to encourage their audience to keep an open mind toward them. We live in a society where the status quo is to believe in some form of spiritual world inhabited by spirits, with ancestors and messiahs and prophets who could commune with that world more or less. We live in a world where people in respected professions (medicine, science) are openly supportive of belief in psychics and psychic phenonmena. Gary Schwartz publishes "scientific" books supporting mediums like John Edward. Psychic healer Caroline Myss has a doctor who co-writes some of her books. And on and on.

It seems to me that anyone who manages to overcome all of this to see it from an entirely skeptical perspective is the exception, not the rule. That makes people who believe somewhat closer to the status quo, which doesn't make them stupid or lazy, it makes them average.

In all my life, I don't know of anyone, outside this forum, who didn't believe in something paranormal. Even if it was astrology, or some vague belief in karma or an afterlife, or belief in intelligent design and a creator.

It's true when people are dealing with a crisis or even just a tough transition in their lives, that tends to be when they turn to psychics. There are others who just go for entertainment, like having their fortune told. Most of us are raised to be SOMEWHAT skeptical of psychics, but hardly any of us inhabit a world that teaches us to be totally skeptical of psychics, and when we experience a crisis, that little bit of maybe may encourage us to seek them out.

And then there is the fact that some psychics are cons, but some are just deluded. How many of us had a friend who read Tarot cards and genuinely believed something paranormal was going on? Or maybe we had what just had to be a psychic dream? So how common is it going to be for us to extrapolate from that that SOME psychics are real? And maybe we hope we can tell from the sincerity of their writing, or by watching how they present themselves on TV, or by how many fans they have, or the fact that a seemingly kind-hearted talk show host or physician is advocating for them?

Of course we feel stupid when we find out the ONE we believed in was a con artist. For all of the above reasons, we probably shouldn't, but we still do. No one likes to feel duped. Maybe we even then begin to question all of them. But that has nothing to do with being inherently stupid or lazy.

 

[Eddie Dane]

Thank you for your insights , EeneyMinnieMoe.

I even think that people who can think rationally can be brought up to believe in woo, or work with a limited data set, are pre-conditioned to believe a psychic etc.

And I also think that people who get hit hard by a death or other life-shaking unfortunate events, become a lot more susceptible to suggestion. Often they are clutching at straws.

I have personal experience with this.
I set up a business venture when I was twenty that went badly wrong due to my business partner essentially being a con-man.
As I was spending all my money on reimbursing angry customers and simultaneously trying to sever all legal ties with this idiot, my mental state went all to hell. I got so nervous that I hardly slept and sometimes was physically shaking. I had to take mild downers to function.
In that period I came upon my horoscope in the paper, and it was really, really spot-on in describing my situation.
I was not yet a sceptic, but didn't believe in horoscopes. I was fascinated and started really watching the horoscopes over the following weeks. It was just vaguely-worded platitude and never seemed as accurate as when I was down-and-out, but I can't help think that my mental state played a big part in how I saw that horoscope.