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Human Evolution site

Eos of the Eons said:
True, but are 4 armed humans another species? The 4 armed humans would also only be good for non-gravity situations. It would be alright, but we need 2 legged ones around to colonize planets, it would be better right?

It's also more interesting to see what makes something evolve as well. It takes longer, but I think we'd learn more from it? I'm not sure the human rights activists would put up with us messing with the current model much. They can't argue if things happen "naturally" though.

Very interesting though. What else could we bake up in a lab situation that would be beneficial?

They would obviously abandoned "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happyness". I could see them gripping if diseases were spliced in;no ethical scientist would do that though and I'd start a storm over that being done. Why do you think we couldn't figure it out in a matter of weeks? Some feature evolves because it gives a survival advantage. Remember I'm talking about when we're so advanced it's like "magic" to us. It's getting late here; gotta go. Cheers.
 
Originally posted by Badger

The success of our species on earth, in my opinion, is guaranteed in that we have expanded across the globe in all climates
I wish I could share your optimism (though I'm not entirely sure why). I think our chances for longevity as a species are by no means a forgone conclusion.
Our challenge is to evolve a species that can become interplanetary and/or interstellar.
Our challenge is to live meaningful lives. Our chances of achieving that as individuals are enhanced by every contribution to a better understanding of ourselves and our place in the universe, but the motivations behind those contributions are individual motivations. It is and always has been impossible to predict what possibilities might emerge as collective results of those individual efforts. I don't see how such a thing could ever be directed, or, even if it could, how doing so could be justified.


That is a cool link, btw.
 
I don't know if it's so much "optimism" as my vew that we're more of an infestation. We're adaptable and omnivorous, as are cockroaches......:)

Yup, that is a cool link. I hope it gets more traffic because I find that stuff facinating!
 
Originally posted by Bill Hoyt

4 warned is 4 armed, 4 pete's sake.
I suppose it might not necessarily work the other way around.

I was looking through threads on that site, and found something interesting I hadn't heard about before: the FOXP2 gene. I gotta find out more about that.
 
Dymanic said:
I suppose it might not necessarily work the other way around.

I was looking through threads on that site, and found something interesting I hadn't heard about before: the FOXP2 gene. I gotta find out more about that.

Hadn't heard of it before. It is interesting!
 
Come to think of it, I do remember hearing about this before.

"The researchers say they discovered a mutated form of FOXP2 that is associated
with a speech disorder that impairs movement of the mouth, lips and tongue and
causes problems such as use of the wrong word tense."

Well, it's certainly not hard to see how those are connected. Whenever I have been go to the dentist and my mouth was all numb I always be talked the wrong tense.

Here's a link
 
new drkitten said:
Re-read Gould and Dawkins. Evolution doesn't occur as a gradual uniform process; it usually happens in fits and spurts when there's competition for resources and niches. We're almost certainly in one of the in-between times, exactly because competition for resources has dropped so far. We're therefore almost certainly not experiencing much evolution at the moment. This will remain the case until we have a shock to the system and nature gets a chance to sort the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

Umm, I haven't read upcoming posts yet, but had to jump in here before I did. So if you've recanted this idea later, I apologise now.

You've misunderstood Dawkins, if that's what you've gleaned from his books. Gould too, for that matter. Punctuated Equilibrium is indeed a process of evolution, in that single events in nature can dramatically alter what's called 'genetic drift'. On its own, genetic drift can still change a species through purely random change. It is the principle behind 'Gradualism', which is what occurs in some way in between PE.

Some people believe that PE is always occuring on some scale, which is another acceptable way of seeing it.

Evolution cannot 'not' happen. Mere mutations ensure that we are different to our parents. The question is, how genetically different does one have to be to be considered a new species? THAT is a good argument, but for another thread.

Genetic Drift experiences bias when selection pressures are added, of which so-called 'natural selection' is one. It is by far not the only one, nor in present views the most important. Humans experience other selection pressures which dictate the number of offspring born in one gene pool. This, when combined with an analysis of movements between gene pools, makes it hard to envision how human populations can change. But it is still clear that we DO change.

In my view, selection pressures are more social in humans than functional or geographical. Hence it is our behaviours which will determine how many offspring we have. Any physiologically linked traits will probably go along for the ride.

There may be subtle sexually selective traits, such as body shape or facial features, but I don't see these translating directly into more offspring. Hell, to be crude, I see a lot of ugly people having large broods of sproglings, so I don't feel that it is an immediate selective pressure.

Athon
 
SkepticJ said:
That's Sexual Seletion. They don't talk about Sexual Seletion much in Biology Class. I don't know why. Peacock feathers, frog neck sacks(not the technical term) and hundreds of thousands of other biological things don't make sense without it.

You need to attend one of MY biology classes. I can't keep off the bloody topic! :D

Athon
 
athon said:
Hell, to be crude, I see a lot of ugly people having large broods of sproglings, so I don't feel that it is an immediate selective pressure.

Athon

:D To be crude myself, I think "beautiful" people are so vain that they don't have as many kids. Women don't want to wreck their bodies, and the men are having too much fun to be tied down by a brood.

So, if anything, we might just get uglier and uglier :D
 
Eos of the Eons said:
True, but are 4 armed humans another species? The 4 armed humans would also only be good for non-gravity situations. It would be alright, but we need 2 legged ones around to colonize planets, it would be better right?


Define species. http://randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45783
How about really low gravity? Like Phobos, Demos and colonies inside large asteroids etc.?
 
I think, as a species, we are screwing up our own evolution (in the name of humanity and niceness) horribly.

We let the weak live. We help them progagate. We take people with deformities, and we extend their life, and allow those that would otherwise be unable to breed or unable to secure a mate the ability.

Traits I would expect the future to have (a VERY short list)...

weak eyesight
pale skin
arthritis
leukemia
MD
MS
Crohn's
low sperm count
high blood pressure
lower fertility (inactive/poorly functioning ovaries/testes)
Impotence
passiveness
reduced IQ
obesity
lower muscle-mass
increased height (which, with less muscle and our inpending arthritis will be a bad thing)
chemical dependance from or shortly after birth.

Virtually all of these are corrected by a 'strongest shall survive' mentality. We pass on weaker genes in our attempt to save everyone, and in our attempt to provide everyone the ability to live and create life. Fertility clinics are another sore, sore spot.
 
We continue to coevolve with parasites and virals. We will be selected for resistance to HTLV, or we will become extinct, or the virus will. If anyone thinks there is no selection pressure on humans right now, go visit Southern Africa.

No doubt, if high technology survives, we will go on tampering with genes, both directly and indirectly by enabling people to survive illnesses which would normally be lethal before sexual maturity- diabetes, haemophilia, juvenile arthritis etc. It might be that psychological conditions- eg shyness- might be weeded out more rigorously than many physical ones.

If technology continues to remove physical hardship from our lives, this will not be a problem. We will exist in a world where physical prowess has ceased to be an advantageous adaptation and it will no longer be selected for. That IS natural selection.

If technology collapses, under the stress of population growth, climate change, etc, then we might revert to more "traditional" selection. Punctuatedly.
 
Soapy Sam said:
It might be that psychological conditions- eg shyness- might be weeded out more rigorously than many physical ones.


Shyness is not a bad trait. Shy people are thinkers, analysts, and the best advisors. We need more shy people than "warrior types".

25% of the people on the planet are "shy" or "introverted". In other countries they are referred to as "wise" instead.

Stuff your "weak" traits. If we ever did go through some hardships, then people with mental and physical diseases would die, so don't worry about that. The fact that we can and do help people is what is good about humanity right now. There are so many people on the planet, that it doesn't matter that people that normally wouldn't survive are surviving. Our survival doesn't depend on the "weaker" dying.

We will evolve ever so slowly until conditions change. We need to really enjoy how we are able to thrive right now. Instead, we get extremists trying to wipe out innocent people.
 
Eos- putting labels like "bad" on a hereditary condition changes the argument from a genetic one to a moral one, usually unhelpfully I feel.

Of course I'm begging the question- "Is shyness inherited and if so is it genetic or cultural inheritance. "
If shyness makes it hard to find a mate and therefore to reproduce, shyness will be selected against, either by natural selection if the trait is genetic, or by culture if it's cultural.

Only in that sense - reproductive failure- could it be labelled "bad". The same might be said of juvenile diabetes. The common argument is that by treating diseases of the young we are "weakening" the gene pool. (We might be making it more flexible, but that view tends to be overlooked).

My point is that while we are removing physical conditions as barriers to reproduction, we may be doing less to remove psychological ones- like shyness, which may accordingly assume more importance (if genetically linked) in the gene pool, so pushing selection in a diffferent direction.

Should it be the case that woowooism is genetic, the rationalists may yet inherit the Earth.
:D
 
Interesting subject. I feel there is some "susceptibility" to wooism in some people, and it may very well be some kind of genetic thing that allows people to "believe" and follow along instead of "question" and "go against the majority". There is some huge benefit with just going along, you aren't targetted. Good survival trait - blend in, but one day that may not be the best survival trait, who knows. One day it hopefully won't matter.

The same with "shyness". I guess you'll have to read some books by Elaine N. Aron. There is a definite set of traits that go along with what we call "shyness". Some would prefer to call the group "thinkers". You can be this "introverted" type and still be quite sociable. I consider myself to be part of this 25%.

Aron talks about the "warrior types" that are highly successful, but are even more successful with some "advisors" on their side. "Advisors" are less likely to breed as much, but they do. It's a good balance.

I'll try to find some links.

It is a sensitive issue to me since I felt there was something wrong with me when labelled shy, introverted. It's a bad thing...but it's not. There are some benefits, and I've learned to value my personality since reading Aron's books. My depression has been pretty much gone since I've stopped worrying about being "shy" or "introverted". I'm rather proud to be part of the "thinkers". There are a lot of thinkers on this board, even non-introverted ones. Admirable bunch.

So, even though I feel a part of a "minority", it's still part of a group, a good group.

Human survival trait again, being part of some group helps for some reason, but some would argue that. Humans are social animals, no getting around it. It feels better knowing you aren't "all alone, different, weird". I like to be different, but not completely different from the whole rest of the world.

Diversity is essential to survival. A minority (black moths) may one day become the majority depending on the conditions. We have to find value in differences, rather than label them some bad label. Many religious folks don't get this. If you're different you "pollute" and cause "evil" and are only worthy of "hell".
 

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