How to test prayer?

[Southwind17]

In order to disprove that prayer works ... sorry, allow me to re-phrase that ... in order to test whether or not prayer works, would it not be possible to survey a representative sample of people, some who believe in prayer and pray, and some who don't, and compare the results to see whether those who pray have a better lot in life? I realize that it might not be easy to develop the survey questions, and it might not be easy to define what might be meant by 'a better lot', but if prayer really does work to any appreciable degree there ought to be a pretty obvious correlation.

Given the allegation that god's 'knowing' that prayer is being tested allow's him temporarily to flick the 'effectiveness on/off switch', or at least turn down the 'effectiveness volume' until nobody is watching again, this 'retrospective testing' should manage to catch the old man off guard.

The survey could take the form of the five-point Likert scale, and respondents need not be asked if they're prayers or non-prayers until after completion of the questionnaire!

Sounds easy to me, at least in principle!

 

[This Guy]

Well, it's sorta been done, and it failed.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12082681/

 

[Dancing David]

There are a number of ways you could design the study.

First off you would have to decide what you mean by prayer works, does that mean a higher quality of life, improved success in life, reducing stress or improving relationships, etc... You could use the survey shot gun to just ask a huge amount of questions and then post facto see which ones are correlated to prayer.

The real issue is going to be getting a balanced survey demographic, do people who use prayer tend to self select by being anxious or calm, do people who use prayer have a certain socio economic status? there are a huge number of issues that would effect the demographic depending on how you define 'prayer works'.

The study design could also vary a whole lot, do you want to work with people in crisis and do a snap shot survey, do you want to do a longitudinal study?

Then there is the issue of what is prayer? And which kind of prayer will you test for. Intercessionary prayer, praying for inner qualities and meditational prayer. Will you include visualization and things like repetitive chanting?

So there would have to be a lot of choices made before the study began.

Then there would be the protocols for the study. Group A prays, Group B does something like secular prayer, Group C does something totally unrealted tp prayer and Group D is some sort of control.

 

[thatguywhojuggles]

Something I've never understood. Why do Christians pray for improved health. If I truly believed in an eternity of joy and happiness with a new body in a place called Heaven, I'd be very excited about the possibility of dying.

Eighty years in this body is incredibly insignificant to eternity in the afterlife.

 

[Bikewer]

Any experiment would have to take into consideration that there exist entire orders of monks, nuns, and other clerical types who exist primarily to pray for "everyone".....

Not to mention legions of grade-school kids who are encouraged to pray for down-and-out types in general.
Could we construct a prayer-proof "Faraday Cage?"

 

[Southwind17]

Any experiment would have to take into consideration that there exist entire orders of monks, nuns, and other clerical types who exist primarily to pray for "everyone".....

Not to mention legions of grade-school kids who are encouraged to pray for down-and-out types in general.
Could we construct a prayer-proof "Faraday Cage?"

Well, if the first category prey for everybody then the effects of their prayer would be neutral, and given that the second category only prey for a select minority of the population than the effects of their prayer on the survey would be negligible! That's that sorted!

 

[frankvan]

Any experiment would have to take into consideration that there exist entire orders of monks, nuns, and other clerical types who exist primarily to pray for "everyone".....

Not to mention legions of grade-school kids who are encouraged to pray for down-and-out types in general.
Could we construct a prayer-proof "Faraday Cage?"

You mean this is as good as it gets?? Maybe we could ask them to stop for a while?

 

[Bri]

From Wikipedia:

In 1872, Francis Galton conducted a famous statistical experiment to determine whether or not prayer had a physical effect on the external environment. Galton hypothesized that if prayer was effective, members of the British Royal family would live longer, given that thousands prayed for their wellbeing every Sunday. He therefore compared longevity in the British Royal family with that of the general population, and found no difference.[4] While the experiment was probably intended to satirize, and suffered from a number of confounders, it set the precedent for a number of different studies, the results of which are contradictory.

Of course, it is possible that prayer only works when it isn't being studied.

-Bri

 

[ChristineR]

From Wikipedia:



Of course, it is possible that prayer only works when it isn't being studied.

-Bri

True, but then you have to define "study." As lots of people conclude from their own personal experience that prayer either does or does not work, you could argue that virtually all prayer is subject to poorly designed studies. And then you have to take into account that God already knows how you are going to respond to his granting/not granting of your request, and you have to look at the fact that if you really do pray and forget about it, you might end up happier (because your wish is granted) but you're not going to get anything theological out of the experience.

And finally we have to look at the fact that the Bible says pretty unequivocally that whatever a Christian prays for, he will get. There's nothing about God knowing that your suffering and dying will make you a better person or fulfill some holy plan.

 

[Southwind17]

As lots of people conclude from their own personal experience that prayer either does or does not work ...

Presumably you mean here that some say it does and some say it doesn't (not that some say it either does or doesn't - that would be a revelation!). So, those who say it does, they must be very selective for what they pray for, and not set the bar too high for god (he's not omni-athletic as well now, is he?)!

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Surely you all know that God always answers your prayers. It's just that sometimes (most of the time?) he does not give you the answer you want. In non-religious circles this is known as random chance.

 

[cnorman18]

--

I think a study should be done on the followers of the "Prosperity Gospel" to find out if the people that send in the most money really do get rich.

Of course, to do that you'd have to get TBN to open their books and release their mailing lists. The chances of that are quantifiable...

Speaking of which, did you know that if you put a little wool hat on a snowball, it can last a really long time in Hell?

 

[articulett]

Surely you all know that God always answers your prayers. It's just that sometimes (most of the time?) he does not give you the answer you want. In non-religious circles this is known as random chance.

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video8.htm

I think the real question is do prayers get better results than wishing on a star.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

From Wikipedia:



Of course, it is possible that prayer only works when it isn't being studied.

-Bri

Regarding the studies in that Wiki article cited as proposing to have found positive results:

Evidence for Correlations Between Distant Intentionality and Brain Function in Recipients: A Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Analysis
Nowhere in the abstract does it say the differences in the MRI scans correlated to the times which the healer sent the messages. It only says there were differences. It also says the healers "chose" the recipients. It also doesn't say the recipients were unaware they were chosen. Nor does it say the 11 'chosen' recipients were randomized into "send" and "no send" groups. It isn't clear at all what the "unsend group" consisted of.

Until those three procedural issues are clarified and depending on the answers, one cannot say this study was actually blind.

I hate this kind of crap. Why is it that a researcher going to all this trouble to study the brain using an expensive MRI procedure cannot perform a decent blinded study? And why would they not realize these issues are important to include in the abstract?

Positive therapeutic effects of intercessory prayer in a coronary care unit population.

Critics claim Byrd's 1988 study was not fully double-blinded

At least Wiki notes this criticism but they get the specifics wrong.

From the study abstract:

The control patients required ventilatory assistance, antibiotics, and diuretics more frequently than patients in the IP group.

What they fail to mention is they studied many more variables than these 3. Then they cherry picked the variables which showed a positive difference.

Here is the Skeptic article which includes a summary of the kind of flaws found in these supposedly scientific studies so I don't have to bother repeating what I have posted on this topic several times before.

Prayer & Healing - The Verdict is in and the Results are Null, by Michael Shermer

In one of the most highly publicized studies of cardiac patients prayed for by born-again Christians, 29 outcome variables were measured but on only six did the prayed-for group show improvement. .... if enough outcomes are measured some will show significant correlations by chance....

...In several studies on the relationship between religiosity and mortality (religious people allegedly live longer), a number of religious variables were used, but only those with significant correlations were reported...

...Many of these studies failed to control for such intervening variables as age, sex, education, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, marital standing, degree of religiosity, and the fact that most religions have sanctions against such insalubrious behaviors as sexual promiscuity, alcohol and drug abuse, and smoking. When such variables are controlled for, the formerly significant results disappear. One study on recovery from hip surgery in elderly women failed to control for age; another study on church attendance and illness recovery did not consider that people in poorer health are less likely to attend church; a related study failed to control for levels of exercise.

And unless god believers are claiming prayer causes a god to change medical records after the fact, or gods act on future prayer while ignoring current prayer (sort of contradicts the, ""God won't act if it is being studied", hypothesis**) then the following study proves the analyses being used in these studies is inherently flawed.

Effects of remote, retroactive intercessory prayer on outcomes in patients with bloodstream infection: randomised controlled trial, (emphasis mine). In other words these guys prayed over medical records of past patients no longer in the hospital and then analyzed the prayed-for and not-prayed-for medical records.


**From the Wiki citation:

Deuteronomy 6:16 states, "You shall not test the Lord thy God"[17], reflecting the notion of some that prayer cannot, or should not, be tested.

 

[Ralph]

Something I've never understood. Why do Christians pray for improved health. If I truly believed in an eternity of joy and happiness with a new body in a place called Heaven, I'd be very excited about the possibility of dying.



Spend a few moments over at Rapture Ready. You will find people there who are rolling on the floor in orgasmic delight whenever there's a natural disaster or terrorist act somewhere in the world..

"250,000 dead in massive tsunami"......."Al Quaida announces it has acuired a nuke"....."Deadly new strain of flue discovered in Mongolia".........Woo-Hoo----We're going home----Jeebus is coming this week fer sure"............

 

[m_huber]

] It also says the healers "chose" the recipients. It also doesn't say the recipients were unaware they were chosen. Nor does it say the 11 'chosen' recipients were randomized into "send" and "no send" groups. It isn't clear at all what the "unsend group" consisted of.

Can I be one of God's chosen? I need supernatural assistance in getting out of bed each morning.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Can I be one of God's chosen? I need supernatural assistance in getting out of bed each morning.

In this particular case the 'chosen' were chosen by some "healers" not by God, in case you didn't notice.

 

[six7s]

Something I've never understood. Why do Christians pray for improved health. If I truly believed in an eternity of joy and happiness with a new body in a place called Heaven, I'd be very excited about the possibility of dying

I have a hunch that those who unquestioningly subscribe to the dream of "an eternity of joy and happiness" also buy into the idea of procreating themselves to the n^th degree so that they can spend eternity with as many of their nearest and dearest as possible - and breeding, child rearing, etc does benefit from the support of healthy grandparents etc

 

[Bri]

In other words these guys prayed over medical records of past patients no longer in the hospital and then analyzed the prayed-for and not-prayed-for medical records.

Surely God would know which prayers will be studied in the future.

-Bri

 

[Bri]

As lots of people conclude from their own personal experience that prayer either does or does not work, you could argue that virtually all prayer is subject to poorly designed studies.

Not all are rigorous studies that would prove conclusively the efficacy of prayer. If God didn't want us to know for certain that prayer works, couldn't he ensure that we wouldn't know?

-Bri