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How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How should Israel kill men in wheelchairs?

Cleopatra said:
The suicide bombings didn't stop and we created a hero for them.
Too bad Yassin never had the balls to strap some dynamite to his wheelchair and lead by example. Instead he sent women and children to blow up other women and children. If that is a "hero" then there is more work to be done.
 
geni said:
When the palistians kill Israeli leader they manage to do it without much in the way of colateral damage:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1603862.stm

Surely the IDF can do at least that well.

Now there's a comment that deserves contempt. Probably the only time in their existence that they managed to do so, and you pick up on it in this manner. Having drinks, a few to many, with other well known friends tonight?
 
So please stop with the excuses why he was inneffective because of his disability...
I'm not claiming he was ineffective. Quite the opposite. I'm just questioning the assumptions people might have of what exactly he was effective at.

I don't believe he could have been like a spider in a web, controlling everything, making most decisions, deciding in detail which tactics to use and inspecting the materials to carry them out. Only if he was a leader like that, does it make sense to kill him, because only then is the way his organisation is run in any way damaged.

If he only inspires people do commit terrorist acts and provides them with the philosopical justifications for doing so, even if he is present at every meeting where such acts are planned, and even if he is asked to give his approval, then killing him does not damage the ability commit terrorist acts.
B) championing the annihilation of Israel and C) inventing the suicide bomber.
That's what I said, isn't it: he gave people ideas. Killing the guy does not make the ideas disappear.
A) establishing a terrorist organization,
I doubt he established that organisation all by himself. And whatever role he had in the beginning, it is likely that he had to get others to take over many of his tasks when he became old, blind and sick.
it is a cop out and frankly insulting to people with disabilities.
I don't see what is insulting to people with disabilities to point out that someone who is blind cannot act like a general in an army without many others performing tasks and making decisions for him.
his followers knew exactly what he stood for and what he required of them.
I think you should not ask what he required others to do, but rather what others were willing to do out of respect for him. You'll then find that those same people are still willing to do the same out of respect for him, and that killing him doesn't make any difference.
That he was able to become a leader shows that he was able to overcome his disabilities.
It does not show that at all. Someone can also become a leader just because people accept him as a leader. He does not have to overcome his disabilities himself if others are willing to perform leadership tasks for him. You could say that his organisation overcomes his disabilities.
There is no reason why he can't organize things, command people and tell them what to do.
There must be many things he could not have done. He could not have drawn designs of how to best build a bomb, he could not have decided which design was preferable by looking at several designs. He could not have looked at maps to decide which places to attack. He could also not have signed an order for explosives. He needed many other people to do those tasks for him.

Other leaders like Hitler, Stalin or Castro tried to control every nitty gritty detail of their plans, which made every decision anywhere in their sphere of influence completely dependent on their personal decisions. Hitler for example had a big say in architecture, weapons design and military strategy. If he would have been completely blind, there is no way he could have done that to the same degree. He could have inspired others to do those tasks for him, but that would have meant that once inspired, his followers could perform those tasks without him. It would have been irrelevant whether he was alive or dead.
News flash: People who still respect someone who's established a terrorist organization and invented the concept of the suicide bomber are probably not going to lose respect for him no matter what he does.
Perhaps not, but we'll never find out now.

Perhaps the biggest mistake a leader of a terrorist organisation could make is dying of completely natural causes. Some people might lose some respect for such a leader if he doesn't manage to make himself a martyr. Suppose Arafat was assassinated by an Israeli helicopter gun ship instead of dying an unheroic death in a French hospital. Do you think the Palistinian Authority would have been equally willing to negotiate peace with Israel? Personally, I don't think so. People generally don't like to make peace with the people who just assassinated their leader.
 
Earthborn said:
Killing the guy does not make the ideas disappear.


I wonder what the ideas that won't disappear are?

Are they written down? Do they extol the nature and potential of humanity? Do they suggest a path for a more actualized life for Palestinians?

Or is the extent of them "Kill more Jews"?

From a purely aesthetic standpoint, the world is better off without him.
 
Earthborn said:
I'm not claiming he was ineffective. Quite the opposite. I'm just questioning the assumptions people might have of what exactly he was effective at.
As a spiritual leader in a religion-based war, (see: Jihad). The killing left Hamas without a central figure to follow, this central figure made it very very clear that he was dedicated to destroying the state of Israel and killing its citizens wherever they could be found.
Earthborn said:
I don't believe he could have been like a spider in a web, controlling everything, making most decisions, deciding in detail which tactics to use and inspecting the materials to carry them out.
In a way I agree... but Yassin set the policy, sanctioned the killings and then praised the attacks.
Earthborn said:
Killing the guy does not make the ideas disappear.
Yassin the only unifying and charismatic leader to Hamas. Without him, the organization is more likely to fracture in the resulting power vacume.
Earthborn said:
I doubt he established that organisation all by himself.
You are right it, Yassin and Mohammed Taha founded Hamas.
Earthborn said:
People generally don't like to make peace with the people who just assassinated their leader.
This is where alot of Europeans have a mental disconnect. Yassin wasn't elected to anything, he wasn't any type of political representative, he didn't represent Palestinians. Yassin wasn't a "leader" of anything except a terrorist organization that was responsible for the deaths of hundreds and hundreds of people including Palestinian men, women and children.
 
Ed said:
I wonder what the ideas that won't disappear are?

I think several things are worth pointing out:

1) Ideas do tend to fade away once those advocating them are dead. Not right away, but over time. The new people taking his place might have slightly different ideas (more moderate) or may be less charismatic and less able to inspire followers.

2) While it is true that sometimes death can create a martyr and make an idea really take off, how often does this really happen? Doesn't the idea need merit on it's own? Does, "Kill the Jews, die for Allah and claim your reward!!" inspire people on it's own? Honestly, if all it took was controversy and a messy death to make another Jesus Christ, we'd be overrun with them. Most people just die and get forgotten with time.

3) Once dead, he doesn’t create any new ideas. Think about it, that’s worth something too.
 

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