How much mathematics do we need today?

If you want to have a bookcase or other piece of furniture in a room that extends from floor to ceiling, you'll have to assemble it inside the room. An already existing piece of furniture will have to be somewhat shorter than the ceiling height in order to be able to stand it up inside the room. How much shorter? The maximum height that the piece can be will be determined by its depth as well its height because the ceiling height will dictate the maximum length of the piece's hypotenuse. You'll need trigonometry to determine how tall an object will fit into the room.
 
If you want to have a bookcase or other piece of furniture in a room that extends from floor to ceiling, you'll have to assemble it inside the room.


I'd worry less about the ceiling height and more about the dimensions of the doorway(s) to the room. ;)
 
I need somewhere between a smidgeon and a bit. It gets confusing when people start using different units of math, though. I mean, what the hell is a tad?
I was always taught that a tad was the distance across the Milky Way galaxy.

- Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions.
Curious. When and why do you need to do this?
 
I used math in my work, mostly trigonometry and coordinate geometry. My approach to math has generally been to know a programming language, be proficient in begging, borrowing, and stealing algorithms I couldn't work out myself, combining the algorithms into a coded monstrosity capable of correctly doing the desired math, however inefficiently, and then promptly forgetting everything about the program except how to make it do stuff. I was prone to forget how to make it do stuff if I didn't use it much.

I'm retired now. I've forgotten nearly all the math I ever had a nodding aquaintance with. For me, it's always been "use it or lose it". And I only used it long enough to tell a computer how to do it.

I wasn't afraid of math. Ain't nothing but glorified bean counting. Figuring out what the textbook is trying to say is usually the hard part. But I found math time consuming and tedious. A tedious means to an end.
 
Exactly what "mundane life activities" would require you to know any of the Gas Laws or even consider standard temperature and pressure?

You forced me to reflect upon my life, and things I do that I consider mundane, and in what possible way could gas laws be relevant...

Perhaps my life isn't normal.

Um, What if you have to cook a cake at high altitude?
Or comprehend which side of the vapor barrier the condensation will occur?

The actual reasons I mentioned the gas laws, I guess, is because they are so comprehensible, and its easy to see the truth in them, which I enjoy, so its possible that I go looking for verification, in my mundane life.

Possibly, I'm a dork.
 
We need math because it is so cool.

And we may need to grab onto all the cool stuff we can.
While we can.

Math can be a happy place.
There's beauty in it.
So impersonal. I like that.

Before we had all the digital wonders, I would instinctively add up the cost of the items in my grocery cart, in my head, for something to do to offset the awkwardness while waiting in the cashier's line. It was amazing how often the cashier would be wrong; both ways. When I was overcharged, it was kind of embarrassing for the clerk, but I was never wrong. The fun part was when they charged me too little, and I'd call them on that as well. That nerdish gesture has generated more goodwill amongst strangers than most things I can site.

Its part of the impersonal beauty of numbers.


(I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?)
 
(I miss complexity. Anyone heard from him?)


Same. He not posted much recently? I got him confused with someone else before, but quite liked his posts in all.

"Maths is impersonal", makes sense to me. Maths is a tool to understand things to such a depth we currently would not be able to without the brilliant mathematical models developed. But hypostatizing the mathematical models into reifications avoids the experimentally provable aspect of observational science, that should always preclude the mathematical theory, as elegant as it may be.
 
Last edited:
For me, math is something that makes life worth living. Literally. But then again, that's just me.
 
Curious. When and why do you need to do this?


I just made that example up as an easy to understand instance of the type of problem. I'll give you some comparable examples from actual projects.

- A simulation of an old-style analog multimeter. For various reasons the routine updating the position of the needle (drawn as a black line) needed to redraw as a line from point to point, rather than rotating a line-shaped sprite. Calculating the needle's end point from the current angle required very basic trig functions (about as basic as you can get) -- x2 = x1 + length * cos (theta0 - theta), y2 = y1 + length * sin (theta0 - theta), where (x1, y1) is the pivot point (x2, y2) is the location of the tip of the needle, length is the length of the needle, theta0 is the needle's zero position, and theta is the angle of deflection. This simulation also required an exponential decay function to make the slew of the needle in realtime look realistic.

- In a kid's game, in a top-down view, a character continuously rotates to face the mouse pointer, as the mouse and character both move around. This is almost exactly equivalent to the "arrow" problem I referred to.

- In user interface for a graphics program for rendering molecules in 3-D, years ago when processors were too slow to update a 3-D rendered graphic in real time, I included various ways for the user to select an arbitrary rotation in 3-D. Combination of rotations around different fixed axes (e.g. yaw, roll, pitch) were often hard to visualize, and trial and error was a slow process given the several-minute redraw time, so I devised some other options.

One of them was that the program would draw a circle around the molecule, which the user would imagine as the edge of a transparent sphere. The user could then click any point inside the circle or on its edge, which the program would interpret as the selection of a point on the surface of the sphere, and then rotate the molecule so that the view direction was from that point. Clicks outside the circle were interpreted as clicks on the nearest point of the edge of the circle.

So, for example, if the image were an earth globe currently viewed from the side (that is, from a point directly above the equator), and you clicked on the very top edge of the circle, or directly above it, it would rotate the globe so that you were looking directly south from above the north pole. But you could also click on, say, London, and the globe would rotate so you were looking directly down on London. (Except the image was a molecule instead of a globe.)

It takes some trig and some linear algebra to make that work.

Respectfully,
Myriad
 
So knowledge of trig and linear algebra is useful to programmers. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that such knowledge is globally useful.
 
The value of knowing anything is related to one's expectations and aspirations. Mathematics is fundamental to scientific thinking, so for some people it's essential to understand and be able to do mathematics. For those with little or no interest in science, mathematics has less value.
 
There are some additional bits of math knowledge (to add to the OP's list) which I think are useful in everyday life.

-Standard Deviation, Variance, and Normal Distribution (really just a conceptual understanding)
-Geometry and Trig (for more complex do-it-yourself house work (ie carpentry))
-Statistical Problems (to tell when a "study" some marketer is pushing on you to sell their product is nonsense) (ex: biased sample, small sample, etc)
-Basic Linear Algebra (really just notation and row reduction) (for example, a florist may have a certain number of different flowers in her inventory and want to know how many arrangements she could make with that inventory among her preset arrangements (kind of a trivial example, but you get the point)).
 
Last edited:
Recently, it has been asked, Is Higher-Level Math needed for everyone? Clearly the answer is no.

This is exactly counter the actual facts of the matter. As devices, etc, are made more complicated, a better understanding of the underlying mathematics is utterly essential for anything beyond a labor-type of job.

As the world becomes more complex, understanding mathematics becomes more important. There is no going back.
 
This is exactly counter the actual facts of the matter. As devices, etc, are made more complicated, a better understanding of the underlying mathematics is utterly essential for anything beyond a labor-type of job.
So I need to be able to understand how my calculator works before I can use it? Sorry, I'm not buying it.
 
So knowledge of trig and linear algebra is useful to programmers. That's cool, but it doesn't mean that such knowledge is globally useful.

Well, if you go back to post #36 you'll see other examples of uses of math that don't only apply to programmers. Myriad was posting about his own need for math, so it's not surprising that some of those uses would be unique to him. However, other people may find different uses for math in their own professions.

Of course, programmers probably need more math than the guy who pours your coffee.

But generally speaking the world is mathematical, and understanding that mathematics gives insights into understanding the world.
 
- Graphics programming. Try to write the simplest routine (say, "draw an arrow at coordinates x1, y1 that points toward coordinates x2, y2") without a thorough command of the trig functions.

dx=x1-x0
dy=y1-y0
d=arrow_length/sqr(dx*dx+dy*dy)
dx*=d
dy*=d
line (x0,y0)-(x0+dx,y0+dy)
line (x0+dx,y0+dy)-(x0+dx*.5-dy*.5,y0+dy*.5+dx*.5)
line (x0+dx,y0+dy)-(x0+dx*.5+dy*.5,y0+dy*.5-dx*.5)

or if it's just a line instead of an arrow

dx=x1-x0
dy=y1-y0
d=length/sqr(dx*dx+dy*dy)
line (x0,y0)-(x0+dx*d,y0+dy*d)
 
Last edited:
Well, if you go back to post #36 you'll see other examples of uses of math that don't only apply to programmers. Myriad was posting about his own need for math, so it's not surprising that some of those uses would be unique to him. However, other people may find different uses for math in their own professions.

Of course, programmers probably need more math than the guy who pours your coffee.

But generally speaking the world is mathematical, and understanding that mathematics gives insights into understanding the world.
Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?"

Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them.

Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work. :D
 
Obviously, some professions need more understanding of mathematics than others. The question was "how much mathematics do we need today?"

Anecdote alert: I can get by with basic arithmetic, because I'm not an engineer, a scientist or a programmer. I've never encountered a situation in my life where I've needed even the simplest algebra. I've yet to see a good argument for me to learn more mathematics than I already know, especially since I don't appear to be particularly good at it (I stumble somewhere before simultaneous equations). Seems to me that people who are already interested in, and good at, mathematics tend to gravitate towards those professions where they can use that ability. The rest of us make coffee for them.

Actually, the rest of us do a lot of valuable work. Just not mathematical work. :D

Lies!!! There is no valuable work without mathematics!!! Just kidding. Actually, I agree with most of what you said. My brother works as a low level chemist and doesn't have much use for math beyond arithmetic either. Most jobs are probably that way and most people can probably get by without needing much math knowledge. Personally I still find math knowledge valuable as it adds to one's critical thinking repertoire and makes some problems easier to solve which perhaps could have been solved another way, but less accurately or in a more time consuming way. The real value in math knowledge, in my opinion, isn't that it is really necessary (in most cases), but that it just makes people's lives easier.
 
You've never needed algebra? I find that hard to believe.

If you've ever worked out anything like "I have $500, and need to pay $300 rent and $50 a week for food. How many books can I afford to buy each week if they are $7 on average and it's 2 weeks till payday" you're algebraing.
 

Back
Top Bottom