Maybe I should have mentioned from the get-go that I’m an atheist myself. After re-reading my original post, it seems like I came off as a patronizing believer. I’m not. I was never indoctrinated to follow any religion (my parents are only vaguely spiritual), I haven’t so much as set foot in a church or mosque (my family’s lineage is Muslim), and I was born, raised and plan to remain in one of the most secular and irreligious cities in my country. I’ve never felt any hostility toward the faithful because their beliefs just seemed like a very simple and harmless way to inject some meaning in their mundane lives and any overtly religious folks I've met seem few and far between. Perhaps if I actually attended a church service or religious gathering or whatever it is do, I’d realize that they have the same access to truth and meaning as we do, they just attach superstition and assorted mumbo-jumbo to it.
Anyway, thank you for all the sensible responses. I know that resisting the things that make us human is futile and life is still filled to the brim with relative meaning. FreeChile’s answer was particularly touching and Scot and P.S.A. both came up with a pretty interesting perspective on the situation. I especially appreciate how although atheism maybe the natural outgrowth of a logical frame of mind, Phil and Stimpson were both honest enough to admit that it isn’t all gumdrops and lollipops. The world is what it is, and no amount of wishing or shoe-clicking will change that.
…Still. Not one of you finds it the least bit “hollow†( I’m not sure if that’s the word I’m looking for) that everything you guys listed as giving you joy is really just the result of evolved emotional responses? Friends, family, a job well done, sex and procreation – these things are fun because our minds are designed that way by self-serving chemical sub-units that are only looking to propagate themselves. The problem is these blind, selfish little bastards stumbled on a brain capable of fully understanding the unfortunate and random situation it never asked to be plunged into. Why exactly should I find comfort in spreading said bastards to to the next generation? So a part of me will live on? Till when? My genetic profile is barely different from any of yours, and its not like the species is in any danger of going extinct. There are 6.4 billion folks out there who are ready and willing to make sure the human race survives, cept’ for kids, post-menopausal women, invalids, and misanthropes, of course. And even if I do decide to have children, than yes, it probably would be a great comfort to have them surrounding me on my deathbed knowing that, at least at that moment, my pride and joys are safe. What wouldn’t be a comfort is that at that moment, I'm not safe. Soon enough my memories are going to be completely annihilated. The experiences, travails and adventures, which constituted “meâ€, will be utterly gone and regardless of the number of people I'm surrounded by, I will still have to ultimately go through it alone.
Oh, and H3LL, I'm not sure I understand your post. What's keeping a theist from finding happiness in the fact that he managed to successfully spread half of his biological identity to the next generation, while still finding solace in the idea that his consciousness will survive death so that he can still watch over the lives of his children, grandchildren and his family line in general and witness the way they change the world for the better?
Listen the reason I’m asking these kinds of questions is so that I can figure out whether or not, a) I see the world as most of you do, it’s just from a glass-half-empty angle meaning I’m a miserable tool (which I can deal with), or b) there is some kind of critical element I’m missing which keeps me from seeing things in a more positive light (in which case, I’d like to know what it is).
ETA: I posted this before reading Kelvin's relpy. Ironically, he addressed a lot of the points I brought up here. Thanks.
Anyway, thank you for all the sensible responses. I know that resisting the things that make us human is futile and life is still filled to the brim with relative meaning. FreeChile’s answer was particularly touching and Scot and P.S.A. both came up with a pretty interesting perspective on the situation. I especially appreciate how although atheism maybe the natural outgrowth of a logical frame of mind, Phil and Stimpson were both honest enough to admit that it isn’t all gumdrops and lollipops. The world is what it is, and no amount of wishing or shoe-clicking will change that.
…Still. Not one of you finds it the least bit “hollow†( I’m not sure if that’s the word I’m looking for) that everything you guys listed as giving you joy is really just the result of evolved emotional responses? Friends, family, a job well done, sex and procreation – these things are fun because our minds are designed that way by self-serving chemical sub-units that are only looking to propagate themselves. The problem is these blind, selfish little bastards stumbled on a brain capable of fully understanding the unfortunate and random situation it never asked to be plunged into. Why exactly should I find comfort in spreading said bastards to to the next generation? So a part of me will live on? Till when? My genetic profile is barely different from any of yours, and its not like the species is in any danger of going extinct. There are 6.4 billion folks out there who are ready and willing to make sure the human race survives, cept’ for kids, post-menopausal women, invalids, and misanthropes, of course. And even if I do decide to have children, than yes, it probably would be a great comfort to have them surrounding me on my deathbed knowing that, at least at that moment, my pride and joys are safe. What wouldn’t be a comfort is that at that moment, I'm not safe. Soon enough my memories are going to be completely annihilated. The experiences, travails and adventures, which constituted “meâ€, will be utterly gone and regardless of the number of people I'm surrounded by, I will still have to ultimately go through it alone.
Oh, and H3LL, I'm not sure I understand your post. What's keeping a theist from finding happiness in the fact that he managed to successfully spread half of his biological identity to the next generation, while still finding solace in the idea that his consciousness will survive death so that he can still watch over the lives of his children, grandchildren and his family line in general and witness the way they change the world for the better?
Listen the reason I’m asking these kinds of questions is so that I can figure out whether or not, a) I see the world as most of you do, it’s just from a glass-half-empty angle meaning I’m a miserable tool (which I can deal with), or b) there is some kind of critical element I’m missing which keeps me from seeing things in a more positive light (in which case, I’d like to know what it is).
ETA: I posted this before reading Kelvin's relpy. Ironically, he addressed a lot of the points I brought up here. Thanks.
Marquis de Carabas
Penultimate Amazing
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Why not just be happy that you're a member of a lineage that has evolved the capacity to be happy? It seems that all you're really doing is looking a gift horse in the mouth.slant said:
What you are saying reminds me of a conversation I once had with a theistic friend of mine. He wanted to know if I really believed that the happiness I felt was just a brain state, just a chemical reaction. I told him yes, and he asked, "But don't you feel cheated? Wouldn't you rather have real happiness?" Well, I thought, what other real happiness is there?
Happiness is happiness. Life is life. Reality is reality. If it's all ultimately meaningless, so be it. It doesn't seem meaningless now--I've got gobs of meanings to choose from--and now is where I'm at. Might as well kick up my feet and enjoy it some.
Dr Adequate
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That's a bit odd. He's identifying reality with lack of physical existence.Marquis de Carabas said:
"He wanted to know if I really believed that the house I lived in was just an edifice, just a construction out of bricks and mortar. I told him yes, and he asked, "But don't you feel cheated? Wouldn't you rather have a real house?""
Whirrrrrr... spoing.
slant said:
I think you probably experience the world and the human condition the same as anyone does, theist or non-theist. But I think we all process it and persist within it differently. The responses in this thread bear that out.
I, for one, view all the questions, the unknowns, the fear, the perceived emptiness, and even the occasional hollowness of being as amazing constructs of the 'meatsacks' we've evolved into. They may not be the most attractive constructs, nor are they always the most desired, but that doesn't diminish the awe I feel for be able to experience them.
And you can put the fact that we are able to ponder life at all in the same category of amazing abilities.
It may be that we are simply at a point in our evolution where we have the ability to look for reasons and meaning in life, but we are not far enough along to realize that those are questions that don't need to be ask. It may be that we are still those trembling creatures standing upright on the plain for the first time, terrified by being aware, eyes darting to and fro suprememly alert, nostrils flaring to capture the odor of the hunter, when in reality we should walk over to a warm patch of grass and take a nap.
That's not to say that there will come a point where we have it all figured out, but perhaps "Why?" really is a question that doesn't need to be asked.
If you feel hollow at times, my advice would be not to worry about. Embrace the fact that you can feel hollow. Embrace the fact that you can feel, period. Thinking animals have a long and varied road to travel, and the grade and ruggedness of that road is going to change. There's going to be a lot of crap to look at along the way. But there's going to be a lot of beauty, too.
I personally like seeing all.
Perpetual Notion
Critical Thinker
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slant said:
I spend my day talking with people who are terminally ill and have less than six months to live. Frequently, I'm talking to them in their final days and we almost always discuss whether or not they feel they've had a good life. People who say they have are those who have found something that they love, whether it be raising a family, travel, learning or just the opportunity to be alive and interact with others. Those are the people who are most at peace and the least fearful about dying.
If you decide that you are a miserable tool, that life has no meaning and that it's best to look at the glass as always half empty, then that's your choice and you'll probably die unhappy with a lot of regrets. There are a lot of those people. They've spent their lives whining and complaining about every single thing and alienating everyone they meet. Nobody misses them when they're gone.
As it stands, you've lucked out being brought into the world as a human, so if you don't figure out how to squeeze some joy out of your short time here, then you've wasted a precious opportunity. Find something that brings you joy and throw yourself into it.
The theist sees the world as evil too. They just create explanations for why this actually is... Even someone like Lifegazer, who argues that everything literally is God and therefore Good, still struggles to create an ideological reason for why the world is none the less obviously evil. Fall From Grace, Predestination, Manicheaism, Karmic Destiny... they are all at base explanations for why evil exists, because it clearly does.
The problem science has from the point of view of this human need for an explanation is that it can objectively quantify the insignificance in material terms of human life. You aren't seeing things wrongly, you are seeing them realistically, as does Science. Truth in reality is not beauty. It should be, but it's not.
And Mankind's brain isn't even designed to even deal with lifespans outside of our own... so the idea of billions of years of existance, which appears to be unremmitingly miserable and pointless from a human perspective is unsurprisingly damaging to some minds... Indeed, Nietszche's argument against God was that an omnicogniscant God would see it all, every pain and every moment of suffering... and if he truly had the a loving heart, he'd weep himself to death at the horror of it all. Even God himself couldn't face his own creation. And this is why some people hate Science. It shows them the truth and, as the cliché goes, some minds just can't handle the truth. Nietszche of course ended up going mad himself...
Religion in general deliberatly fudges these values, and makes them more palattable to the human mind; either by asserting an even greater value to set against them (IE, God, whose greatness must be assumed by faith no matter how high the evil piles) or by rephrasing the nature of Evil itself to make it more acceptable (and smaller). But then again, this altered state of understanding can be achieved by so drugs, or by wilful self delusion... but in doing so, you lose your objectivity, your understanding of the genuine truth. Religion is the little white lie, and it's a way out of the dilemna... but it's presumably not one you can take, because you don't value lies.
And awful as it is to state... some people just don't ever find that something, and it breaks them. Or find it and become so crippled by dependency upon it that it breaks them anyway... people who cease to live, but merely cower and purge themselves in an endless worship of the fear of death. You ask us for something to to help you see things in a positive light; sadly there will always be more darkness than torches to illuminate it... and it seems not everyone even gets a torch. Nor may you want the torch we might be able to give you, or if you take it, it may end up consuming you instead of the darkness. And in the end, all of our torches go out anyway. No exceptions. Nobody passes the test of time.
Which means ultimately, all questions about existance, if you are going to be honest about reality, boil down to just a single one; Do I prefer the light that exists now, do I accept it for what it is whilst you have it, or do I welcome the darkness? Because this light is all you get, "the result of evolved emotional responses" is the only happiness which exists in the universe. Scream at the sky that there should be something more until you are blue in the face, or sit there smugly asserting there is something out there, but you sKeptics can't see it... makes not a jot of difference in the long run. And you appear to know this. So what are you going to value now, before it's all taken away from you?
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but believe me, this is what it comes down to. I have intimate experience of people who suffer from existential despair/severe depression and far, far worse... but there's no answer anyone can give which will take away reality... not if you won't avert your eyes from the truth. You either learn to deal with reality, or you go under. You find something to value, something you can believe in yourself, or your life has no value. It can't be given. You have to understand it yourself.
I mentioned Science as something to believe in. You don't have to lie to yourself with it either, quite the opposite in fact. But ultimately, it comes down to your ability to embrace something, anything. Music, food, what ever... if you value it, hang onto it for dear life, even if you know it means nothing... There's no such thing as a wasted life, because there's no such thing as a point to be worked towards in the universe. Just have fun and try and leave the world slightly better than you left it, the light just a little bit brighter before it all goes out, and you've done all that a simple human can be expected to have done.. It's the only choice you really have, all that being human really is... You can choose to life now, or stare into the abyss until it stares back into you. And the abyss never blinks or looks away.
Well, if that comes across as too heavy, time to break out the musical references; Henry Rollins once said in an interview I read something pertinent... everyone who is honest gets down at times, and during those times, you need to find a rock to chain yourself too to get through it all. Well, the important thing is having that rock... not that you get down, just that you get through. Or, as he put it in the song "Low Self Opinion";
If nothing else, stomping around the room screaming lyrics which communicate to you in some way helps get through it all. Or winding up idiots on internet boards, like I do
Either way... find something to love in yourself and in what you do; That's the only answer there is.Dr Adequate
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Who holds the patent?FreeChile said:
He must be getting richer by the minute.
Z
Variable Constant
Dr Adequate said:
Ouch - you should serve time for that one.
H3LL
Illuminator
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slant said:
That's OK. I'm just tolerated like the dribbling uncle that mumbles in the corner. Pay attention to the other posters. Some of them have a brain.
slant said:
Many do not believe that and are actively trying to destroy the science that says so.
slant said:
Watching isn't being involved or having an impact.
PygmyPlaidGiraffe
Graduate Poster
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KelvinG said:
I think this would be called doubting ones doubt.... and why not, doubters doubt a variety of things.
I am not comfortable with the idea of losing my grandparents (they are gone now, and I miss them), I don't look forward to losing my parents, my wife, my pets...
Do I want to see them again? Sure I do. Is it going to happen after they pass away? I doubt it... my discomfort and sense of loss remind me of how precious the here and now is... the discomfort and sense of loss make me wish for a lot of things, but wishing never amounts to anything. My doubt in an afterlife is not unshakeable, especially at times of loss.
My doubt in a greater unifying goey marshamallowy meaning is not unshakeable, and I suspect I will have doubts about my doubt on my death bed too when I get scared and lonely.
As to do I ever feel some things are hollow pusuits... yep, I doubt the value of many things, such as materialism, capitalism, buying a pint of beer, reading some books that I read, donating to charities, neighbourhood watch, free trade... but sometimes I just relax and enjoy the beer without making a judgement about the value of doing so.
farmermike
Critical Thinker
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It wouldn't be hard to see that easygoing fellow not passing on his genes after a hungry lion stumbled upon him.All the worriers were up a tree.Phil said:
P.S.A.You certainly have a knack with words.
I had to think about this for awhile before I put it into words.
For the first 30+ years of my life I was a Christian of the Baptist persuasion. I liked the sense of community, the music and the ritual. Most of what was preached didn't make sense to me and contradicted the whole 'Love thy Neighbor'. Apparently most of what was preached about God's love was only to be applied to other Christians. *shrug* After one particularly offensive and hypocritical incident I washed my hands of the whole thing and declared myself agnostic.
It didn't take me long to realize that my life was not changed without having the comfort of 'God's love' in my life. I could not find any instance of prayed or divine intervention that substantially altered the circumstances of my life. The one change I did notice was the appreciable lack of prejudicial and bigoted statements I had to listen to.
My life is what I make of it, I am responsible for the decisions I make. I get the credit if things go well and I accept the blame if things go wrong. I no longer waste time waiting to see what God has in store for me and my life. It has given me greater self confidence and self reliance, as well as allowing me better understanding of myself. I am more forgiving, not because a book says I should but because it's healthier for me emotionally.
When I was a child I needed the guidance of my parents and often the implicit threat of punishment to behave. I like to think as an adult I no longer need a parent to tell me right from wrong and threaten punishment, including the withholding of his love, if I do not live up to his rules. I no longer depend on my parents to bail me out if I make a mistake or life isn't going well, why should I rely on someone that may or may not help me depending on their plan for my life? A plan I have no way of knowing.
Existensial terror? As opposed to what, emotional blackmail by a being that loves me but not enough to provide indisputable proof of his existence?
Thanks, but no thanks.
Boo
For the first 30+ years of my life I was a Christian of the Baptist persuasion. I liked the sense of community, the music and the ritual. Most of what was preached didn't make sense to me and contradicted the whole 'Love thy Neighbor'. Apparently most of what was preached about God's love was only to be applied to other Christians. *shrug* After one particularly offensive and hypocritical incident I washed my hands of the whole thing and declared myself agnostic.
It didn't take me long to realize that my life was not changed without having the comfort of 'God's love' in my life. I could not find any instance of prayed or divine intervention that substantially altered the circumstances of my life. The one change I did notice was the appreciable lack of prejudicial and bigoted statements I had to listen to.
My life is what I make of it, I am responsible for the decisions I make. I get the credit if things go well and I accept the blame if things go wrong. I no longer waste time waiting to see what God has in store for me and my life. It has given me greater self confidence and self reliance, as well as allowing me better understanding of myself. I am more forgiving, not because a book says I should but because it's healthier for me emotionally.
When I was a child I needed the guidance of my parents and often the implicit threat of punishment to behave. I like to think as an adult I no longer need a parent to tell me right from wrong and threaten punishment, including the withholding of his love, if I do not live up to his rules. I no longer depend on my parents to bail me out if I make a mistake or life isn't going well, why should I rely on someone that may or may not help me depending on their plan for my life? A plan I have no way of knowing.
Existensial terror? As opposed to what, emotional blackmail by a being that loves me but not enough to provide indisputable proof of his existence?
Thanks, but no thanks.
Boo
Lord Muck oGentry
Graduate Poster
Slant,
You asked:
- - - - -- -- -- - -- --- - ----
'How do you guys do it?
What I mean is, how do most of you, it seems, maintain disbelief in any higher purpose in the world while still avoiding that nasty feeling of “existential terror†'
- - - - - - -- - -- - - - -
As far as I can see, the notion of purpose ( or "higher purpose", if you prefer) depends on the notions of personal agency, means and ends. Since "the world" is neither agent nor means nor end, the question of purpose just does not arise. Disbelief requires no maintenance at all.
This member of "you guys" doesn't "do it", because it doesn't take any doing.
Regards
You asked:
- - - - -- -- -- - -- --- - ----
'How do you guys do it?
What I mean is, how do most of you, it seems, maintain disbelief in any higher purpose in the world while still avoiding that nasty feeling of “existential terror†'
- - - - - - -- - -- - - - -
As far as I can see, the notion of purpose ( or "higher purpose", if you prefer) depends on the notions of personal agency, means and ends. Since "the world" is neither agent nor means nor end, the question of purpose just does not arise. Disbelief requires no maintenance at all.
This member of "you guys" doesn't "do it", because it doesn't take any doing.
Regards
I'm relatively at peace with my own meat-sack finitude. Yet, as was recently touched upon in this thread, I think that the prospect of the nonexistence of God or of the soul is not necessarily less terrifying than the prospect of their existence, particularly for the thinking person who is better able to grasp the implications of the latter scenario. The question puts me in mind of the novels of Graham Greene or any of a host of other so-called "God-haunted" writers (whether theist or atheist). One thing that certainly emerges from them is that belief can in some sense present the less comfortable, less reassuring option.