How do we explain ghosts?

[P.J. Denyer]

If I had an explanation like that, I would not have even bothered posting in this thread. There was no structural explanation for what I heard.

I was lucky to have stumbled across the explaination. If I hadn't then maybe I'd be the one arguing I knew what I'd heard and ghosts rattled my washing up. The existence of a mundane explaination is not dependant on our know it.

 

[Carlotta]

Nessie, you didn't answer my question in post #255. Was something a trick of the light and a legitimate ghost at the same time?

 

[Nessie]

Late to the party (as frequently happens) I've been wondering how a trick of the light can simultaneously be a legitimate ghost. Maybe I missed something.

If you mean the headlight ghost story, that is a trick of the light, not a ghost. The way the light and shadow moved across the road, it looked like a shadowy person had run across the road. That was confirmed by repeated sightings and on the right night (clear, no wind, moon in the sky) it was possible to see it, turn around and drive by again and see it again.

That is one of the reasons why the footsteps in the house was so odd. It happened once in four years. If it was something structural, I would have heard it more than once.
Being a creature of habit, I would watch TV till 01.00 and then go to the bathroom and then go to bed. There was nothing in the house that could have caused footsteps to be so clear and it happened only once.

 

[xjx388]

If you mean the headlight ghost story, that is a trick of the light, not a ghost. The way the light and shadow moved across the road, it looked like a shadowy person had run across the road. That was confirmed by repeated sightings and on the right night (clear, no wind, moon in the sky) it was possible to see it, turn around and drive by again and see it again.

That is one of the reasons why the footsteps in the house was so odd. It happened once in four years. If it was something structural, I would have heard it more than once.
Being a creature of habit, I would watch TV till 01.00 and then go to the bathroom and then go to bed. There was nothing in the house that could have caused footsteps to be so clear and it happened only once.

Maybe the headlight ghost died while crossing that road after murdering children and now he/she is doomed to repeat that fateful night for eternity? You don't know!

 

[abaddon]

If you mean the headlight ghost story, that is a trick of the light, not a ghost. The way the light and shadow moved across the road, it looked like a shadowy person had run across the road. That was confirmed by repeated sightings and on the right night (clear, no wind, moon in the sky) it was possible to see it, turn around and drive by again and see it again.

That is one of the reasons why the footsteps in the house was so odd. It happened once in four years. If it was something structural, I would have heard it more than once.
Being a creature of habit, I would watch TV till 01.00 and then go to the bathroom and then go to bed. There was nothing in the house that could have caused footsteps to be so clear and it happened only once.

But here's your problem. I was woken several irregular times over a period of weeks by heavy leaden footsteps of uncertain origin.

I worked it out. You just don't want to.

 

[Nessie]

But here's your problem. I was woken several irregular times over a period of weeks by heavy leaden footsteps of uncertain origin.

I worked it out. You just don't want to.

You worked it out because it repeated. I did not have that opportunity.

 

[theprestige]

You worked it out because it repeated. I did not have that opportunity.

Assuming your perception and memory are accurate, which is not a good assumption.

Anyway, without an opportunity to work it out, you can't just default to "therefore ghosts are real". The appropriate default in that scenario is "therefore I can't say what it was."

 

[abaddon]

You worked it out because it repeated. I did not have that opportunity.

You didn't even try. Because you don't want to. Because you prefer the cosy little illusion that you have found something, anything, inexplicable.

The difference between us is that you immediately responded with "Ghosts" and left it at that, whereas I responded with "What's going on here? Let's find out".

You preferentially settled for the first answer you liked. I did not.

You decided on the basis of nothing to believe in something you made up out of whole cloth because you liked it. I decided to nail the actual cause.

I put in the effort to determine a cause, you could not be bothered preferring instead to leap wholeheartedly to an unjustified conclusion simply because you liked it.

I am sorry if this gives you grief, but those are the facts. You have an unexplained sound and that's it. I had an unexplained sound and determined the actual cause by sheer effort and attention to detail. And EVIDENCE.

Were I of your frame of mind, I could genuinely have recorded those sonorous steps and posted them on the web, except there wasn't one back then. Were video as easy as it is now, I could have recorded objects apparently spontaneously moving in my bedroom, but alas such facilities were not available at the time. I had to make do on my own.

So, I went through some sleepless nights waiting up for the event to happen and sure enough, eventually it did happen. Sonerous footsteps transpired. Because I was wide awake waiting for it for the first time, I immediately identified it was coming from the wardrobe.

Next step, repeat with the wardrobe left wide open. Imagine my surprise when the hangers in the wardrobe apparently started spontaneously moving of their own accord. It was like watching the internals of a piano playing. WTF?

Some inspection revealed that only empty hangers moved. Why would that be?

So, out of curiousity, I simply swung an empty hangar. It clonked against the backboard of the wardrobe. close the door (as much as possible) and repeat
and discover that the backboard acts as a soundboard and the body and cavity of the wardrobe acts as a resonance box much like a guitar. Aha. Something must be moving the hangers, but only the empty ones to generate the sound.

Now what would be so lightweight so as to only move the empty hangars?

By pure luck and many sleepless nights, I had my answer. It was a mouse. He had somehow determine that the best route through my bedroom was across the hangars, but at the rear where he could not be seen. The only hangars that move enough were the empty ones, they clonked of the back and the entire wardrobe resonated in a very dramatic way.

One mousetrap later, no more footsteps.

 

[Carlotta]

If you mean the headlight ghost story, that is a trick of the light, not a ghost. The way the light and shadow moved across the road, it looked like a shadowy person had run across the road. That was confirmed by repeated sightings and on the right night (clear, no wind, moon in the sky) it was possible to see it, turn around and drive by again and see it again.

That is one of the reasons why the footsteps in the house was so odd. It happened once in four years. If it was something structural, I would have heard it more than once.
Being a creature of habit, I would watch TV till 01.00 and then go to the bathroom and then go to bed. There was nothing in the house that could have caused footsteps to be so clear and it happened only once.

Thanks!!!

 

[wasapi]

Nessie, would you please reply to my suggestion of possible explanation? Thank you.

 

[bluesjnr]

If you mean the headlight ghost story, that is a trick of the light, not a ghost. The way the light and shadow moved across the road, it looked like a shadowy person had run across the road. That was confirmed by repeated sightings and on the right night (clear, no wind, moon in the sky) it was possible to see it, turn around and drive by again and see it again.

That is one of the reasons why the footsteps in the house was so odd. It happened once in four years. If it was something structural, I would have heard it more than once.
Being a creature of habit, I would watch TV till 01.00 and then go to the bathroom and then go to bed. There was nothing in the house that could have caused footsteps to be so clear and it happened only once.

There is your answer. You've flushed the toilet and on this occasion it has caused percussion in the pipes.

 

[Nessie]

You didn't even try. Because you don't want to. Because you prefer the cosy little illusion that you have found something, anything, inexplicable.

The difference between us is that you immediately responded with "Ghosts" and left it at that, whereas I responded with "What's going on here? Let's find out".

You preferentially settled for the first answer you liked. I did not.

No, at the time I looked for various obvious possibles, such as I searched the house in case someone had come inside and I checked other residents to see if had been one of them (even though the steps had walked right by me and I saw no one).

I walked the route of the steps to see if I could replicate the noise, but I knew there were no creaking floor boards or anything like that.

You decided on the basis of nothing to believe in something you made up out of whole cloth because you liked it. I decided to nail the actual cause.

I put in the effort to determine a cause, you could not be bothered preferring instead to leap wholeheartedly to an unjustified conclusion simply because you liked it.

I am sorry if this gives you grief, but those are the facts. You have an unexplained sound and that's it. I had an unexplained sound and determined the actual cause by sheer effort and attention to detail. And EVIDENCE.

Were I of your frame of mind, I could genuinely have recorded those sonorous steps and posted them on the web, except there wasn't one back then. Were video as easy as it is now, I could have recorded objects apparently spontaneously moving in my bedroom, but alas such facilities were not available at the time. I had to make do on my own.

So, I went through some sleepless nights waiting up for the event to happen and sure enough, eventually it did happen. Sonerous footsteps transpired. Because I was wide awake waiting for it for the first time, I immediately identified it was coming from the wardrobe.

Next step, repeat with the wardrobe left wide open. Imagine my surprise when the hangers in the wardrobe apparently started spontaneously moving of their own accord. It was like watching the internals of a piano playing. WTF?

Some inspection revealed that only empty hangers moved. Why would that be?

So, out of curiousity, I simply swung an empty hangar. It clonked against the backboard of the wardrobe. close the door (as much as possible) and repeat
and discover that the backboard acts as a soundboard and the body and cavity of the wardrobe acts as a resonance box much like a guitar. Aha. Something must be moving the hangers, but only the empty ones to generate the sound.

Now what would be so lightweight so as to only move the empty hangars?

By pure luck and many sleepless nights, I had my answer. It was a mouse. He had somehow determine that the best route through my bedroom was across the hangars, but at the rear where he could not be seen. The only hangars that move enough were the empty ones, they clonked of the back and the entire wardrobe resonated in a very dramatic way.

One mousetrap later, no more footsteps.

I never heard the noise again, so that I could further investigate.

 

[Nessie]

Assuming your perception and memory are accurate, which is not a good assumption.

Anyway, without an opportunity to work it out, you can't just default to "therefore ghosts are real". The appropriate default in that scenario is "therefore I can't say what it was."

I think personal experience and credible witnesses of other similar events makes it reasonable to say there is such a thing as a ghost, but we do not know exactly what a ghost is.

 

[Nessie]

I believe we have all had the experience of thinking we hear our name called, or thinking we may have heard someone speak, when no one was there. Couldn't the foot steps have the same source?

I never told anyone about what happened that night for a few years. I was hoping it would repeat or I found the source.

Then one day my wife asked me to make sure I kept the doors locked as she had heard someone walk down the hallway. She was adamant someone had come into the house, but when she had checked, no one was there and she admitted she had checked the doors and they were locked.

I just brushed it off as is happening in this thread right now. Go on a while and my wife told me she had been told someone had died in the house just before we had moved in. I then told her about my experience with footsteps in the hall.

The point is to all the ghost stories I have told, is that in all cases it is credible witnesses who at the time did not think, ghost, we all thought someone really was there.

 

[arthwollipot]

I walked the route of the steps to see if I could replicate the noise, but I knew there were no creaking floor boards or anything like that.

Then I think it's safe to say that what you heard was not footsteps. It must have been some other kind of noise.

I think personal experience and credible witnesses of other similar events makes it reasonable to say there is such a thing as a ghost, but we do not know exactly what a ghost is.

Are personal experience and credible witnesses sufficient to say that UFOs are alien spacecraft? Are they sufficient to say that homeopathy works? That drinking industrial bleach can cure cancer?

We are skeptics. We require more than just personal experience and credible witnesses. We require verifiable data that is consistent with reality as is currently understood. And when that data isn't available, we say that we don't know, and we accept that in some cases we might never know. A lack of verifiable data is absolutely not evidence of ghosts.

 

[Nessie]

There is your answer. You've flushed the toilet and on this occasion it has caused percussion in the pipes.

I heard the footsteps before I flushed.

 

[arthwollipot]

I never told anyone about what happened that night for a few years. I was hoping it would repeat or I found the source.

Then one day my wife asked me to make sure I kept the doors locked as she had heard someone walk down the hallway. She was adamant someone had come into the house, but when she had checked, no one was there and she admitted she had checked the doors and they were locked.

I just brushed it off as is happening in this thread right now. Go on a while and my wife told me she had been told someone had died in the house just before we had moved in. I then told her about my experience with footsteps in the hall.

The point is to all the ghost stories I have told, is that in all cases it is credible witnesses who at the time did not think, ghost, we all thought someone really was there.

There was obviously a noise. More than one person heard it. It probably sounded a lot like footsteps, but it can't possibly have been footsteps. It was something else. If you want to explain this phenomenon, look for something that can make a noise that sounds like footsteps.

 

[Nessie]

Then I think it's safe to say that what you heard was not footsteps. It must have been some other kind of noise.

Are personal experience and credible witnesses sufficient to say that UFOs are alien spacecraft? Are they sufficient to say that homeopathy works? That drinking industrial bleach can cure cancer?

We are skeptics. We require more than just personal experience and credible witnesses. We require verifiable data that is consistent with reality as is currently understood. And when that data isn't available, we say that we don't know, and we accept that in some cases we might never know. A lack of verifiable data is absolutely not evidence of ghosts.

I am not arguing I have proof of ghosts and I accept my evidence is weak. Witness evidence is the weakest form of evidence.

What I am saying is that there is something out there, which is certainly not rattling plumbing or creaking floor boards, that causes credible people to have strange experiences where they think someone real is there, but they are not.

I suspect it may, as you say, we have to accept we might never know.

 

[Pixel42]

In the words of Sir David Attenborough:

"The correct scientific response to something which is not understood is always to look harder for the explanation, not give up and assume a supernatural cause".

 

[Axxman300]

I can tell ghost stories all day but I don't waste the bandwidth because just because I saw something doesn't make it real.