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Homeopathy Demonstration Advice?

Peacock

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Peacock
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
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Hi everyone,

I was wondering if I could get some advice. I'm working on a presentation for school, and would like to drink a 1oz bottle of homeopathic Conium maculatum (Hemlock) in front of the class. I was wondering what dilution to purchase. I know anything over 12X is just alcohol, but would it be safe to drink a whole bottle at 3X? Also, I get conflicting answers on which is actually considered more potent by homeopaths. Some say low dilutions are better for immediate relief, some say high dilutions are best. All opinions are appreciated!

Thanks,
Peacock
 
According to the Law of Infinitesimals, the more dilute, the more powerful the action.

Plenty of things called homeopathic remedies blur the distinction with herbals, though. For instance, Calms Forte uses relatively high strength (1X to 3X) of various herbs that are thought to induce sleep. (Chamomile, oats, hops, passion flower, and the like.) By homeopathic principles, these ingredients ought cause restlessness rather than drowsiness. Incidentally, the ingredients in Calms Forte have various "strength" ratings--1X of passion flower, for instance, is called "Triple Strength". WTF?

I was just checking to see if Extra Strength Head-On is a more dilute version of regular strength, but there is no regular strength.

To your hemlock question, 3X is a 0.1% solution, but of what? A dried hemlock leaf? How much neurotoxin (coniin) was in the original substance? (I have no idea, but my guess is that the homeopathic you can buy is just water or just lactose.)

If you have access to any lab equipment (like a chromatograph or whatever), what about comparing trace ingredients in a homeopathic to those in tap water? What about an experiment where students take a dose of an unknown (to them) sample and try to decide whether it was just tap water or a homeopathic? (I'd suggest doing something similar with a cough medicine or real OTC, but you probably couldn't do that ethically.)
 
Peacock said:
Hi everyone,

I was wondering if I could get some advice. I'm working on a presentation for school, and would like to drink a 1oz bottle of homeopathic Conium maculatum (Hemlock) in front of the class. I was wondering what dilution to purchase. I know anything over 12X is just alcohol, but would it be safe to drink a whole bottle at 3X? Also, I get conflicting answers on which is actually considered more potent by homeopaths. Some say low dilutions are better for immediate relief, some say high dilutions are best. All opinions are appreciated!

Thanks,
Peacock
Click to expand...
Please let me talk you out of this idea. Homeopath manufacturers have been known to add effective amounts of real drugs to their preps, and this could make you very sick; even dead. (The same is true for "herbal" remedies.)

I also don't know what affect an ounce of alcohol would have on you. If it makes you flush, the students may attribute that to the "remedy" and ruin the purpose of your demonstration.

Can you play a video for the class? I think the Randi fans can direct you to a video of him performing just such a demonstration.

By the way, 12C (24X) is considered the point at which none of the original molecules remain, depending on assumptions made. Since you are a bit confused about that, maybe you should post more about your presentation here, there are a lot of experts here. It would probably help us to know what grade you are in.
 
There's about 1024ml of water in the ocean, so a 12C solution is like dropping a teaspoon of hemlock into the Thames and then taking a teaspoon of water out of Sydney Harbour.

A 30C solution is like dropping a spoonful of hemlock into a spherical ocean a hundred light-years across.

Either one should be safe to drink. :)

Well, not the actual water out of the actual Sydney Harbour...
 
JJM said:
I also don't know what affect an ounce of alcohol would have on you. If it makes you flush, the students may attribute that to the "remedy" and ruin the purpose of your demonstration.
Click to expand...

I think I missed that. Liquid homeopathic remedies are made with water, not alcohol.
 
Dont bother doing the demonstration- don't even turn up, by the "laws" of homopathy that would make your demonstartion even more effective. ;)
 
joobz said:
I'm certain it has to do with solubility limits at high dilutions. :)
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[Italics added] Surely you mean at high concentrations. The higher the dilution, the less relevant is the solvent.
 
JJM said:
JoeTheJuggler said:
Liquid homeopathic remedies are made with water, not alcohol.
Click to expand...
Not always. I do not know why or when they make a choice.
Click to expand...

You're right. I never knew that. So we can ignore all the stuff about "water memory"--although I suppose the dry preparations that use lactose already made that point.

At any rate, for your demo, you can avoid that issue by using the dry preparations--down a bottle of "pellets".

On this page, "high" potencies for hemlock start at 200C.

I don't care what it is, it's not going to have any measurable hemlock in it.

The liquid comes in 20% (for direct liquid dosage) or 87% (for "medicating blank pills").

This discussion of the "strength" of homeopathics makes me wonder how they decide which one is appropriate.

It's certainly not based on clinical trials (because I'm sure the various preparations won't be different, one from another). Do you just make the decision based on expense? Just using the page cited above, 15ml of 200C and 15 ml of 1M liquid has the exact same price. For the low strength (2X to 21X) the prices are all identical for a given quantity.

Seriously, you can order the low potency stuff at every X value from 2X through 21X, as if there's going to be a situation where you need 12X, but 11X or 13X won't work!
 
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JJM said:
Please let me talk you out of this idea. Homeopath manufacturers have been known to add effective amounts of real drugs to their preps, and this could make you very sick; even dead. (The same is true for "herbal" remedies.)

I also don't know what affect an ounce of alcohol would have on you. If it makes you flush, the students may attribute that to the "remedy" and ruin the purpose of your demonstration.

Can you play a video for the class? I think the Randi fans can direct you to a video of him performing just such a demonstration.

By the way, 12C (24X) is considered the point at which none of the original molecules remain, depending on assumptions made. Since you are a bit confused about that, maybe you should post more about your presentation here, there are a lot of experts here. It would probably help us to know what grade you are in.
Click to expand...

Do you have an article I can cite that tells of Homeopathic manufacturers adding real drugs to their "remedies"? I have never heard of this before and would love to add it to my report. The hemlock I want to purchase is diluted in alcohol. According to the manufacturer, it is to "preserve and prevent bacteria". They also say that if you don't like the taste, you can add it to water and let the alcohol evaporate.(????) I'm actually a college student, but the presentation is for a gen-ed course's audience, so it can't be too technical. I was aiming for something light with a bit of sarcastic humor. I'm definitely going to buy the 12X dilution - thanks for helping to clear that up - but I may not drink the whole bottle if there is a chance its been tampered with. Maybe I'll scrap the whole idea and go with the U-tube video of Randi instead. Thanks again for your help - Peacock
 
JoeTheJuggler said:
{snip} At any rate, for your demo, you can avoid that issue by using the dry preparations--down a bottle of "pellets". {snip}
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NO! You are missing the point- they can put anything in the tablets, as well as in liquid preps. Get it?! Wake up! We never know what is in homeopathic or herbal preps in any form. None of them is assured to be safe.

This student should not ingest an uncontrolled, uncertain substance. Please, get with the program and discourage this demo.

Besides, no matter what the result, homeopaths have an explanation for lack of observed activity.
 
I realize that homeopathic remedies aren't subject to FDA regulations, but I'd feel safe eating a bottle of 200C hemlock pills. I'd avoid doing the same with herbals or supplements (or even those homeopathics that blur the distinction). I can't imagine a large supplier like Boiron or Hyland putting "stuff" in their homeopathic preparations.

The homeopathic sleeping pills that Randi has "OD'd" on were Calms Forte--which really is either a terrible herbal medicine (too weak) or a confused and low potency homeopathic (wrong substances based on their proving and only 1 to 3X dilutions).
 
JJM said:
"Should" is the critical word- you never know what is actually in homeopathic and herbal preps.
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Absolutely right. According to the homeopaths themselves, it could contain bacteria, silica shards, catalytic polywater, or macro-scale quantum entanglements.

And in reality, it could contain biologically significant quantities of harmful substances. Homeopaths have - by definition - no understanding of chemistry or biology, so you can't trust what they say about the contents of their remedies at all.
 
What's hemlock supposed to cure, anyway? Death by execution?

Mr. Randi has done demonstrations using Calms Forte homeopathic "sleeping pills," as have I. No side effects for me after downing two bottles except a desire not to eat lactose for dinner again any time soon. Edit: I see JoeTheJuggler has covered this.
 
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