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holy fire

tom006

New Blood
T
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Feb 6, 2005
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I was wondering if anyone had heard of this supposedly yearly occurence:

The miracle of the Holy Fire occurs before every Pascha (Easter according to Eastern Orthodox calendar). The ceremony, which bewilders the souls of Christians, takes place in the Church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem. The date for Pascha is determined new for every year. It must be a first Sunday after the spring equinox and Jewish Passover. Therefore, most of the time it differs from the date of Catholic and Protestant Easter, which is determined using different criteria. Holy Fire is the most renowned miracle in the world of Eastern Orthodoxy. It takes place at the same time, in the same manner, in the same place every single year for centuries.

I used to be involved with the Orthodox Church. This "holy fire" miracle is something I'd heard about, but looking around the internet I couldn't find anything debunking it, or even addressing it from a sceptic's point of view. Ok, I didn't look that hard, but if anyone knows anything I'd love to hear it.
 
Hmmmm...pictures don't say much. I'd have to have a first person look at it to really offer an opinion.

Oh, wait, when has that ever stopped me?

Is this actually a flame or just a light? If I read correctly it was referred to both ways. If it's just a light, I wonder if it would show up if they covered any and all windows to the outside.

If it truly is a flame, then it is produced either naturally or artificially from somewhere inside.

Knowing the long tradition of pious fraud in the Church, I wouldn't find it hard to believe at all that it is simply a gas flame produced by the local clergy.

As for people being washed in the flame, exposing their skin to it for a long time, that's no big deal. I can hold my arm in an open flame for the better part of a minute if I just keep moving it around enough.

But interesting, I would really like to see that first hand.
 
Welcome to the forum.

That is certainly a fascinating "miracle".

Isn't there a type of gas flame that doesn't burn much?

In one photo, the light on the pillar looks like sunshine.

The guy with the candle with someone's hand in the flame -- the flame looks suspicious -- more like magician's silk???

I hope others can address your concerns.
 
thanks

Thanks for the welcome. This is a bit more than the standard pious fraud because it's been going on for centuries. Or at least it's been reported as such. There's a lot riding on this though. If it is a fraud then centires of patriarchs are in on the scam. It's easy to blame fraud on a bad apple, but when it's hundres of bad apples over hundreds of years...
 
Re: thanks

tom006 said:
It's easy to blame fraud on a bad apple, but when it's hundres of bad apples over hundreds of years...
Click to expand...

...you have a conspiracy theory, complete with secret societies aiming at world domination.

What the hell is the difference between this and the Illuminati crap? Get a grip!

Prove fraud. Prove that they're "bad apples," and not honestly self-deluded. Prove malicious intent. People walk on glass and hot coals all the time, as well as adjusting chakras and all that other garbage, and virtually all of them honestly believe they are doing something special, even those who make a buck from it. Very few are in it with less than honest motives.

If you came here looking for answers, fine, no problem. It sounds, though, like you've already assigned motive and are now looking for validation. In order to do that, you're going to have to ignore a lot of evidence.

As for those photos, you can do anything in a snapshot. The one is simply overexposed sunlight on a pillar. A fraud? No, it's just someone's misinterpretation of something he didn't realize he was doing with a camera. The people holding their body parts in the flame aren't holding the flame still, they're keeping it in motion so the heat never builds up in one spot. Set the shutter speed fast enough and you can eliminate all blur and motion from the snapshot, as has been done with the guy "holding" his hand in the flame; if you look, he's actually moving his fast enough that the flame is being fanned. All of this can be honest misinterpretation by someone who's had no training in photography beyond the drug-store camera, or who accepts the photo at face value.
 
The nun stood at the right hand of Nabdiel [the cameraman]. On the video one can see how he films down on the crowds. At a certain point all lights are turned off — it is time for the Patriarch to enter the tomb and take the Holy Fire. While he is still inside the tomb one suddenly hears a scream of surprise and wonder originating from the nun standing next to Nabdiel.
...
The camera now turns to the right, whereby it is possible to contemplate the cause of the commotion. A big candle, held in the hand of the Russian nun, takes fire in front of all people present before the patriarch comes out of the tomb. ... This video appears to be the closest one gets to an actual filming of the miracle
Click to expand...

So, while all eyes are on the tomb, a candle held by a nun that nobody is watching is miraculously lit. Please excuse me if I remain unimpressed; this is straightforward misdirection.
 
that's if

I don't necessarily think it's pious fraud (that is on the level of someone putting squirters behind an icon or someting). You're right, that would be unlikely for the reasons I gave - it would require hundreds of people over hundreds of years to be in on the scam. It's perfectly reasonable that a lot of people wanting to believe something will believe it. I guess I'm just surprised that I couldn't find anyone saying "hey I was there and if you hold your hand long enough it burns you like any other fire." But google isn't the answer to all life's questions. Which is why I posted here to see if anyone knew anything.
 
Greece being mainly an Orthodox country, we are being shown each year videos of "the miracle". Imagine a church packed with spooky Christians continuously pushing one another where suddenly a priest raises a candle which was supposedly spontaneously lit and then the mob goes completely crazy. Of course there is never a close-up of the miraculous candle lighting up. You get the idea. Religious fanatics = big time idiots. If someone shouts in there "hey, look at Virgin Mary" they'll all see her and they'll be able to accurately describe her too.
 
Now, to ponder a bit on the "minor" miracle of the candle. There is a commotion, the camera swings, and
A big candle, held in the hand of the Russian nun, takes fire in front of all people present before the patriarch comes out of the tomb.
Click to expand...
"Taking fire" must be a pretty slow process, if the camera can still catch it after the commotion has started! I wonder, how many people are present with unlit candles?
 
Regarding the candle -- you've probably seen the birthday cake candles that, when extinguished, burst into flame a little later.

It could be that the (presummably) medieval priests who started this ritual knew the chemistry to produce this effect, or similar. But, as has been said, this would imply an inside cadre who are in on the secret, but still think it is important to faith.
 
I love the fact that if members of other denominations are present, the fire doesn't light their candles. See, not only a miracle to prove that God is right, but also a miracle to prove that the East Orthodox Church is right !
 
thanks

Thanks for the input, everyone. Of course it's impossible to come to a conclusion without being there, but some good possibilities were mentioned here.
 
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