Historical Jesus

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If Fred Smith has been accused of committing a crime, an absence of evidence cannot lead you to a definite conclusion that Fred did not actually commit the crime. The best you can do is say that there is insufficient evidence to convict him.. in other words, you don't know!

Your post is probably the most absurd I have seen.

If you were accused of a crime for which there is no evidence your defense lawyer can argue that you did not commit the crime.

There is a difference between insufficient evidence and absence of evidence.

You have repeatedly stated the Paul et al are fictional characters - and you have stated this as if they were facts. YOU CANNOT POSSIBLY KNOW THAT! You do not have direct evidence that these characters were created, as fiction by other people. You might hold a strong opinion on this; you can use the absence of evidence as strong support for your claim, but you cannot know for certain that you are 100% correct.

Again, you post more absurdities.

The NT contain evidence that Jesus, the disciples and Paul were fabricated.
The absence of evidence never ever proves anything, other than we don't know. It never has, and it never will.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Absence of evidence has always been used to argue non-existence.

If Fred Smith was charged with murder and there was no evidence the jury can find him not guilty without any reasonable doubt.
 
Your post is probably the most absurd I have seen.

It is not at all absurd

If you were accused of a crime for which there is no evidence your defence lawyer can argue that you did not commit the crime.

Yes, but ARGUING I did not commit the crime is not the same as PROVING I did not commit the crime!

There is a difference between insufficient evidence and absence of evidence.

Absence of evidence IS insufficient evidence (but the reverse is not necessarily true)

The NT contain evidence that Jesus, the disciples and Paul were fabricated.

Prove it, with evidence (NOT with an absence of evidence)

Absence of evidence has always been used to argue non-existence.

Angels and ministers of Grace defend us!!! Do you REALLY not understand the difference between arguing for a claim and proving a claim? Seriously?

If Fred Smith was charged with murder and there was no evidence the jury can find him not guilty without any reasonable doubt.

True, but remember in the Law "Not Guilty" is not the same as "innocent"
 
So, absence of evidence is the fundamental factor for your belief that Jesus was not divine.

Yes... his BELIEF!!!. Beliefs are not proof!

How amazing!!!!

Not amazing at all.

acbytesla understands the difference between what he believes and what he can prove. The biggest shame is that this is something you don't appear to be able to do yourself!
 
Yes, but ARGUING I did not commit the crime is not the same as PROVING I did not commit the crime!

Your post is ridiculous. What other evidence can be presented to prove a crime was not committed when you say there is no evidence?
Absence of evidence IS insufficient evidence (but the reverse is not necessarily true)..

Ridiculous nonsense!!! Absence of evidence means no evidence. Insufficient evidence means not enough evidence.

Prove it, with evidence (NOT with an absence of evidence)

Absurd and ridiculous. Based on your absurdity no-one charged with a crime can be found not guilty without a reasonable doubt when there is no evidence.

It is those who claim an event occurred who must prove or provide evidence.


Angels and ministers of Grace defend us!!! Do you REALLY not understand the difference between arguing for a claim and proving a claim? Seriously?

You don't know the difference between arguments in a debate and proof.


True, but remember in the Law "Not Guilty" is not the same as "innocent"

What absurdity.

If a person is found not guilty without any reasonable doubt then such a person can say they are innocent and never ever committed the crime for which they were charged.
 
Yes... his BELIEF!!!. Beliefs are not proof!

Please, you are not making any sense. The poster admitted he was sure Jesus was not divine because he has not seen evidence of supernatural events.
 
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1. The NT stories about Jesus and Paul are fiction.

Pretty much.

2. The author called Paul claimed he witnessed events that could not have happened.

Did he, though? As I was saying before, that testimony is considered by most scholars to be a later forgery.

Again: you seem to assume that ancient manuscripts can't have been tampered with. That's by FAR not the case.

3. Not a single NT writer mentioned or copied his Epistles - not even the author of Acts who was Paul's supposed close companion.

Was he, though? That the "we" sections in Acts are not written by gLuke is almost consensus at this point. Pretty much the only debate left about them is whether gLuke himself copied those from an earlier source, or someone added a bit of forgery to the manuscript later.

4. Multiple 2nd century Christian writers and even a non-apologetic knew nothing of Paul as an evangelist and nothing of the Epistles and Churches.

And yet he seems to be somehow important enough to try to make him say what one wants to say. That's not someone who was totally unknown.

In fact the whole pattern to ancient forgeries is that instead of calling it "the epistle of Larry", which nobody would have any reason to obey, you'd sign it with a name that they would in fact know and attribute some authority to, like Peter or John or such. That so many forgeries are in the name of Paul would actually indicate that the name was actually known and carried some authority.

Now I'm not saying necessarily that he actually founded this or that church, but he was known. For whatever reason.

5. The Pauline letters are really a compilation of multiple unknown writers.

Which is known to pretty much everyone at this point. Even the RCC at this point doesn't say that all of them are Paul's any more. The ones taken to mean anything are a subset of 7 which were written by the same person.

But basically the fact that there were SOME forgeries in someone's name, doesn't mean that you can just dismiss that person and everything by them entirely. Because such forgeries existed in the name of pretty much anyone who had any authority on any domain. E.g., there were a ton of medical forgeries in the name of Galen, by multiple unknown writers, but that doesn't mean that Galen never existed :p

6. There is no historical corroboration for Paul and Epistles by non-apologetic writers.

Exactly what would someone who wasn't a Xian even have to say there, and why?

7. Non-apologetic writings were forged to make it appear that Paul was in communication with Seneca who lived in the time of Nero.

That they did. But again, you seem to be operating on a sort of all-or-nothing assumption.

8. 2 Peter, the only NT writing outside Acts of the Apostles [regarded as fiction] which mention Paul only once is a forgery.

Sure, but the NT isn't the whole body of works or anything. It's a curated collection that (A) had to say what the ones compiling it wanted it to say, and (B) fit a preset number of books. As such, it is rather incomplete.

9. The author of Acts appears to have used the writings of Josephus to help to fabricate Paul.

gLuke did use Josephus extensively, and sometimes makes a hash of it too. Which really is why we know that Luke and Acts were written after Josephus. But I'm not sure how you get that Josephus had anything to do with Paul specifically.

10. An apologetic source state the Pauline Epistles were written after the Revelation of John.

Yes, well, the classic and medieval church wanted everything to be written very early. I mean, Eusebius dates Matthew's gospel to 41 AD. IIRC various berks dated Acts to 62 AD or so. And so on.

And they were wrong about the order too. E.g., the early church narrative said that Matthew was the first gospel written, and Mark is after that. We're pretty sure today that they were wrong about that.

So I wouldn't take such claims about who shot first to really mean much.
 
Please, you are not making any sense. The poster admitted he was sure Jesus was not divine because he has not seen evidence of supernatural events.

Is English not your first language?

Do you understand that what you believe to be true is not the same as what you can prove to be true?

Do you understand the difference between facts and opinions?
 
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Ridiculous nonsense!!! Absence of evidence means no evidence. Insufficient evidence means not enough evidence.

No! No! No! One is a subset of the other.

Insufficient Evidence means there is some evidence, but it is not enough. You cannot draw a conclusion.

Absence of Evidence means there is no evidence at all. You cannot draw a conclusion.

They are functionally the same thing i.e. you cannot draw a conclusion.
 
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Does it? I am not sure about that. Does it really matter that much whether this fiction was created in 70, 90, 125 or 275CE?

It matters not at all in terms of the worth of the text itself any more than any accounts of alleged godly doings matter. Except that large numbers of sanctimonious, judgmental believers seek to rule my life in the name of god and attempt to impose their bible-based beliefs on me and my loved ones via legislation and social sanctions. Hence, the more knowledge we have of the origins of biblical texts and their composition and their dependence on dubious traditions, hearsay and magical stories the better one is able to undercut their power.

Also, it is interesting from a purely academic perspective to learn about the crap so many people seem prepared to believe and why.
 
So, absence of evidence is the fundamental factor for your belief that Jesus was not divine.

How amazing!!!!

Well, Well, Well!!!!

I have never seen any historical evidence for Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

Except there is evidence for a Paul. It might be piss poor evidence. But it is evidence. And unlike for Jesus, there is nothing supernatural about Paul. I follow the maxim that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". That a man existed that wrote some letters and his name was Paul is hardly extraordinary.

OTOH, a being that created the universe and everything in it and came to Earth and became human flesh and performed miracles just so he could be tortured and killed is very extraordinary.
 
It matters not at all in terms of the worth of the text itself any more than any accounts of alleged godly doings matter. Except that large numbers of sanctimonious, judgmental believers seek to rule my life in the name of god and attempt to impose their bible-based beliefs on me and my loved ones via legislation and social sanctions. Hence, the more knowledge we have of the origins of biblical texts and their composition and their dependence on dubious traditions, hearsay and magical stories the better one is able to undercut their power.

Also, it is interesting from a purely academic perspective to learn about the crap so many people seem prepared to believe and why.

:thumbsup: From that perspective, it matters

....a little.

But I think you will find that a substantial number of Christians won't be buying the truth regardless of the evidence. They're like Donald Trump supporters. "Facts? We don't need no facts. We don't have to show you any stinking facts!"
 
dejudge said:
So, absence of evidence is the fundamental factor for your belief that Jesus was not divine.

How amazing!!!!

Well, Well, Well!!!!

I have never seen any historical evidence for Jesus, the disciples and Paul.

Except there is evidence for a Paul. It might be piss poor evidence. But it is evidence. And unlike for Jesus, there is nothing supernatural about Paul. I follow the maxim that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". That a man existed that wrote some letters and his name was Paul is hardly extraordinary.

You have no historical evidence at all, none, zero, nothing for Paul. Why are you now attempting to fabricate piss poor evidence for Paul?

You have already put your foot in the mouth. You admitted that you are certain Jesus was not divine because you have not seen any evidence for supernatural events.

You are actively using absence of evidence while pretending that absence of evidence cannot be used to argue Jesus, the disciple and Paul did not exist.

You very well know that it is not at all necessary for a fiction character to be characterised as supernatural to be regarded as non-historical.

For example, Sherlock Holmes was a fictitious character without any supernatural attributes.

There are perhaps millions of fiction characters without supernatural characteristics found in novels all over the world .

OTOH, a being that created the universe and everything in it and came to Earth and became human flesh and performed miracles just so he could be tortured and killed is very extraordinary.

You have been trapped by your own admission that you use absence of evidence to claim Jesus was not divine.
 
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You have no historical evidence at all, none, zero, nothing for Paul. Why are you now attempting to fabricate piss poor evidence for Paul?

You have already put your foot in the mouth. You admitted that you are certain Jesus was not divine because you have not seen any evidence for supernatural events.

You are actively using absence of evidence while pretending that absence of evidence cannot be used to argue Jesus, the disciple and Paul did not exist.

You very well know that it is not at all necessary for a fiction character to be characterised as supernatural to be regarded as non-historical.

For example, Sherlock Holmes was a fictitious character without any supernatural attributes.

There are perhaps millions of fiction characters without supernatural characteristics found in novels all over the world .



You have been trapped by your own admission that you use absence of evidence to claim Jesus was not divine.

You think? That argument sounds pretty stupid. I also think fairies aren't real. Nor leprechauns or Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

But I do think it is possible there are humans name Paul. And I do think it is possible that a human who called himself Paul wrote some letters. Especially when in a few of the letters whoever wrote the letters called himself Paul.

But hey, what do I know? :boxedin::rolleyes:
 
....... I also think fairies aren't real. Nor leprechauns or Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Why do you think fairies, leprechauns, Santa Claus or Ester Bunny aren't real?

What evidence do you have thay they are not real?
But I do think it is possible there are humans name Paul. And I do think it is possible that a human who called himself Paul wrote some letters. Especially when in a few of the letters whoever wrote the letters called himself Paul.

But hey, what do I know? :boxedin::rolleyes:

That argument sounds pretty absurd to me.

You very well know that it is not just a few of the letters where the author is called Paul.

You know that all the authors of Pauline Epistles including the Pastorals are called Paul.

The Pauline Epistles are the very worse examples to argue for an historical Paul because even Scholars admit the letters have multiple authors pretending to be Paul.

It is quite illogical to claim Paul existed because NT authors called themselves Paul.

In the Bible it is claimed that GOD wrote the Ten Commandments.
 
You think? That argument sounds pretty stupid. I also think fairies aren't real. Nor leprechauns or Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

But I do think it is possible there are humans name Paul. And I do think it is possible that a human who called himself Paul wrote some letters. Especially when in a few of the letters whoever wrote the letters called himself Paul.

But hey, what do I know? :boxedin::rolleyes:

I think debating here is a waste of time and effort so long as dejudge remains unable to distinguish between opinion and fact; between belief and proof, while continuing to maintain that absence of evidence counts as proof.
 
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I think debating here is a waste of time and effort so long as dejudge remains unable to distinguish between opinion and fact; between belief and proof, while continuing to maintain that absence of evidence counts as proof.

I have to agree.

BTW, I just read an article written by Richard Carrier on why he believes that Paul certainly existed. Although he fully agrees with Dejudge's take on Acts.

Pretty good article.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643

I'm sure Dejudge will have something to say.. I'd quote it but a few lines would not be enough.
 
Richard Carrier says this about the possibility of 6 of the Epistles being 2nd century forgeries as opposed to being written in the 50-60CE timeframe.

I can’t even think of a single example of an ancient forger successfully ignoring all the central doctrinal and tradition disputes of their own day merely to produce a convincing period-accurate but thereby contemporarily-irrelevant document. The temptation to support or attack the then-going views (usually by fabricating early support for them, e.g. 2 Peter) is simply too strong, and in fact is the usual motivation for forging documents in the first place. In short, the letters of Paul make no sense in the second century (in precisely the way that, for example, 2 Peter actually does).
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643
 
Richard Carrier says this about the possibility of 6 of the Epistles being 2nd century forgeries as opposed to being written in the 50-60CE timeframe.

How can you even know if Carrier's opinion on the Epistles are credible?

As usual, Carrier cannot and will never present any historical evidence for the character called Paul at anytime. Never ever.

You seem to think that the unsubstantiated claims by Carrier can magically make Paul a figure of history.

Only historical evidence is needed-not assumptions.

No NT writer corroborated that Paul wrote a single letter to any Church anywhere at anytime.
 
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BTW, I just read an article written by Richard Carrier on why he believes that Paul certainly existed. Although he fully agrees with Dejudge's take on Acts.

Pretty good article.

I'm sure Dejudge will have something to say.. I'd quote it but a few lines would not be enough.


Ok so I took the time out to read all of that (not much else to do during lockdown). It was quite long, but I found it very interesting, so thank you for posting the link.

Carrier makes some pretty compelling arguments for the authenticity of the six main Pauline Epistles.

https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643#256

He also brings up something I that I hadn't heard of before. I had always considered that Galatians was likely written as a rebuttal to Acts, but he makes a good argument that this is not the case, and that it seems more likely to have been the other way around.
 
How can you even know if Carrier's opinion on the Epistles are credible?

As usual, Carrier cannot and will never present any historical evidence for the character called Paul at anytime. Never ever.

You seem to think that the unsubstantiated claims by Carrier can magically make Paul a figure of history.

Only historicalevidence is needed-not assumptions.
No NT writer corroborated that Paul wrote a single letter to any Church anywhere at anytime.

So?

It should be noted that Carrier agrees with the highlighted line. But the Epistles do exist and someone did write them. The question is who and when they were written.

Carrier points out that while there are many forgeries of letters attributed to Paul, he's convinced that 6 of them are written by the same person in the 50 to 60CE timeframe and that person is Paul.

He argues that the absence of extra biblical writings about Jesus makes the likelihood of his existence far less because "Jesus belongs to several myth-heavy reference classes" whereas Paul does not.
https://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/7643
 
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