Hate speech

While it is acceptable to talk about moderation of other forums here, be very careful to confine it to issues with other forums. Discussion of moderation of this forum should be confined to the Forum Management subforum. I realize the issues are closely related, so please exercise caution.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 
roger said:
I have mixed feelings about some of the recent threads on here. However, the Membership Agreement very definitely limits free speech (I know, you didn't say otherwise). It's pretty hard to see how stating we should execute all Jews is 'civil and polite', or how the emotional responses of people to such posts is worse than the original post (which, face it, is emotional since there are no rational facts to back up such hatred).

You call for rational responses, and free speech. I agree with both. Yet non-rational, emotional posts stand, and people applying free speech get sanctioned.

That is what doesn't make sense, to me at least. I can't post a photo that would hang on a museum's wall (because of certain body parts being visible), but I can post something causing anguish to hundreds of posters. I think that is about the opposite of what any of us would tolerate in our own homes, or any private place where we might exert some control on speech.
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I think you have some valid points here, although I'm not sure which work of art you couldn't post here, unless it would violate copyright.

I go back to my original thought. That while we may be upset by many of the horrifically hateful posts we see here, it is more constructive to argue than to censor.
 
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"The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is hate speech, popular and presented by some of the governments in the Middle East as fact, and incitement to hate, although the origin of the book is well established as bogus, written by the Czar's secret police to foment anti-Semitism at the end of the 19th Century.
 
LibraryLady said:
Naturally, hate speech ceases to be free speech when it incites others to commit illegal acts. “Librarians are militant radical terrorists who should be shot. We have guns. Let’s go shoot them.” Is not free speech; it is conspiracy.
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Actually, you're pretty far off the mark on this from the perspective of US law. First off, it's not conspiracy because: 1) your hypothetical didn't include any second person actually agreeing to do the illegal act; and 2) nobody took any affirmative steps in furtherance of the illegal act. I can present you with a detailed plan for how we can cooperate to rob a bank, but if you don't agree to do it, there's no conspiracy. Even if you do agree with my plan, unless we do something to advance it (like buying night-vision goggles or sharpening our bullets) it's also not a conspiracy.

However, I doubt your example would be illegal as any sort of incitement to violence. Incitement tends to have to be directed at a particular listener (or, at least, an identifiable set of listeners. Rants on the radio can't really be incitement. Your statement made to everyone on the internet can't be incitement. You can read on white supremacist forums great encouragement and admiration for "lone wolves" who go out and kill minorities on their own. But the lack of a specific incitement to a specific guy keeps it from being acationable.

Also, illegal hate speech has to actually work or, at the very least, appear to be about to work. A Nazi speaking at a rally of ten people, shouting into the microphone while pointing at a counter-demonstrator, "There's one of them Jews, holding a sign that says "Peace!" He's the Jew stealing your money! Grab him! Hit him! Beat him up!" - that's illegal. "Look at those counter-demonstrators. I bet some of them are Jewish. Grab whomever you can! Beat them up!" - that's probably illegal. "Those counter-demonstrators are probably Jewish. Somebody should beat them up" - that's already getting into a grey area.

And if I grabbed the mic at a pro-choice rally and yelled, "Jews in the audience who can hear me, hit the gentile next to you with your sign!" - that probably wouldn't be incitement because it just wouldn't really cause anybody to want to do anything violent.

Also, other forum moderation rules should be adopted here. People of the JREF forum, find a moderator and hit her with your signs!
 
What I could never understand is why on a internet forum posters would become so emotionally invested in someone starting a thread that is so obviously garbage.

If a thread is created that states Jews are this or black people are that when it is very common knowledge that neither statement is true why would anyone bother to respond at all?

I don't believe that hate speech is where the problem lies but the response to it is.

Banning, putting in prison, beating up or an attempt at logical discussion is not the way to stop hate speech or garbage talk.

How many hate threads are going to be posted if no one responds to them?
How many white power marches are going to held if no one notices?
How many truther rallies will there be if no one shows up to speak out against it?

The people that make these hate statements want that response.
They not only need it but eat it like candy.

Just like trolls, don't feed the hate.
 
Thunder said:
and after all this time, we still aren't strong and intelligent enough to fight lies and hatred with truth and honesty?
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I kinda doubt -you- would be allowed off the plane in those countries.
 
Brattus said:
What I could never understand is why on a internet forum posters would become so emotionally invested in someone starting a thread that is so obviously garbage.

If a thread is created that states Jews are this or black people are that when it is very common knowledge that neither statement is true why would anyone bother to respond at all?

I don't believe that hate speech is where the problem lies but the response to it is.

Banning, putting in prison, beating up or an attempt at logical discussion is not the way to stop hate speech or garbage talk.

How many hate threads are going to be posted if no one responds to them?
How many white power marches are going to held if no one notices?
How many truther rallies will there be if no one shows up to speak out against it?

The people that make these hate statements want that response.
They not only need it but eat it like candy.

Just like trolls, don't feed the hate.
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Freedom of speech is the best offense against hate speech.
Take on the speaker, but above their level.
But as noted, in nations where hate speech is promoted by the government, it takes more than witty responses to combat the problem.
 
I Ratant said:
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Freedom of speech is the best offense against hate speech.
Take on the speaker, but above their level.
But as noted, in nations where hate speech is promoted by the government, it takes more than witty responses to combat the problem.
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I disagree!
 
Loss Leader said:
Actually, you're pretty far off the mark on this from the perspective of US law. First off, it's not conspiracy because: 1) your hypothetical didn't include any second person actually agreeing to do the illegal act; and 2) nobody took any affirmative steps in furtherance of the illegal act. I can present you with a detailed plan for how we can cooperate to rob a bank, but if you don't agree to do it, there's no conspiracy. Even if you do agree with my plan, unless we do something to advance it (like buying night-vision goggles or sharpening our bullets) it's also not a conspiracy.

However, I doubt your example would be illegal as any sort of incitement to violence. Incitement tends to have to be directed at a particular listener (or, at least, an identifiable set of listeners. Rants on the radio can't really be incitement. Your statement made to everyone on the internet can't be incitement. You can read on white supremacist forums great encouragement and admiration for "lone wolves" who go out and kill minorities on their own. But the lack of a specific incitement to a specific guy keeps it from being acationable.

Also, illegal hate speech has to actually work or, at the very least, appear to be about to work. A Nazi speaking at a rally of ten people, shouting into the microphone while pointing at a counter-demonstrator, "There's one of them Jews, holding a sign that says "Peace!" He's the Jew stealing your money! Grab him! Hit him! Beat him up!" - that's illegal. "Look at those counter-demonstrators. I bet some of them are Jewish. Grab whomever you can! Beat them up!" - that's probably illegal. "Those counter-demonstrators are probably Jewish. Somebody should beat them up" - that's already getting into a grey area.

And if I grabbed the mic at a pro-choice rally and yelled, "Jews in the audience who can hear me, hit the gentile next to you with your sign!" - that probably wouldn't be incitement because it just wouldn't really cause anybody to want to do anything violent.

Also, other forum moderation rules should be adopted here. People of the JREF forum, find a moderator and hit her with your signs!
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Oh dear. I sit corrected! I had the scenario in my head of the speaker actually talking to people and then taking in the group to wreak havoc. But I certainly didn't convey that, so you are absolutely right!

However, it is still hate speech.
 
Architect said:
And just as a matter of interest can you name me a Western democracy where this has happened?
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The Netherlands, although the charge was incitement to discrimination and hatred rather than incitement to violence.
 
This is not a thread about the Forum's moderation of "hate speech" - use the Forum Management section for those types of discussions.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
 
Brattus said:
What I could never understand is why on a internet forum posters would become so emotionally invested in someone starting a thread that is so obviously garbage.

If a thread is created that states Jews are this or black people are that when it is very common knowledge that neither statement is true why would anyone bother to respond at all?

I don't believe that hate speech is where the problem lies but the response to it is.

Banning, putting in prison, beating up or an attempt at logical discussion is not the way to stop hate speech or garbage talk.

How many hate threads are going to be posted if no one responds to them?
How many white power marches are going to held if no one notices?
How many truther rallies will there be if no one shows up to speak out against it?

The people that make these hate statements want that response.
They not only need it but eat it like candy.

Just like trolls, don't feed the hate.
Click to expand...

After a little thought I realized the above post was rather naive.

Let's use the 911 sub forum as an example.
There is simply no reason to have that sub forum open and there hasn't been for the past several years.
The same posters go over the same issues again and again, thread after thread.
Everything that could be covered on the subject has been covered time and time again.
The only reason anyone is still posting there is because the sub forum is open to post in.

The posters in that sub forum are the same as the posters responding to threads elsewhere on the forum who's only purpose is to get a huge response.

The most logical response to such threads is of course no response at all.
In my opinion the posters on here respond to the "hate threads" because they feel they are actually doing something that is real in the real world.

They believe that when someone post that black people should be ground up as pet food or something similar they have to stand up and fight it or such thoughts will spread like a wild fire and once rational people will begin to not only believe such things but also act on them.

They have to fight the good fight!
They have to save the world for democracy!
They have to stop the hate with hate for the hater!

The reality however is quite different.
The truth being that nothing on this internet forum holds any meaning in the real world.
Posters sit at there computers for hours reading and typing and they want to believe it is not wasted time. That it stands for something when it really has no meaning or effect on reality whatsoever.

Take a look at Mr. Lancaster and his efforts to stop Sylvia Browne.
No matter how nice of a man he is(and he is a very nice man)no matter how good of a writer he is(and he is a very good writer)the only thing that is ever going to stop Sylvia Browne once she made it on television is death.

It is very important to Mr. Lancaster to believe his web site has had an impact on Sylvia Browne because of the huge amount of time, work and money he has devoted to it.
I don't blame him. I would feel the same.

But along with Mr. Lancaster the defenders of the good fight posters are just typing words on the internet.
That's it.

Meanwhile in reality people will still flock to so called psychics shoving as much money as they have at them so they don't have to do the work to solve there own problems.
Racist, Nazis and haters will still spew out hate and lies because they let their world die around them and it is all they have left to make themselves still feel alive.

Pity and silence should be the only response.

But feeding the hate, lies and stupidity on this forum is what gives most posters on here some kind of meaning to there life.

Sad really.
 
Brattus said:
A
Take a look at Mr. Lancaster and his efforts to stop Sylvia Browne.
No matter how nice of a man he is(and he is a very nice man)no matter how good of a writer he is(and he is a very good writer)the only thing that is ever going to stop Sylvia Browne once she made it on television is death.

It is very important to Mr. Lancaster to believe his web site has had an impact on Sylvia Browne because of the huge amount of time, work and money he has devoted to it.
I don't blame him. I would feel the same.

But along with Mr. Lancaster the defenders of the good fight posters are just typing words on the internet.
That's it.

Meanwhile in reality people will still flock to so called psychics shoving as much money as they have at them so they don't have to do the work to solve there own problems.
Racist, Nazis and haters will still spew out hate and lies because they let their world die around them and it is all they have left to make themselves still feel alive.

Pity and silence should be the only response.

But feeding the hate, lies and stupidity on this forum is what gives most posters on here some kind of meaning to there life.

Sad really.
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I'm thinking what's sad is that you seem to have missed the members we have here now who used to follow Sylvia. Ex-Minister was quite close to her, in fact.

Robert's site changed their minds. They no longer follow Sylvia, but instead are seeking to improve their critical thinking skills so they can keep from being fooled again.

What he did changed some people. Sorry if it's not enough people, whatever that number might be, but it isn't at all as ineffectual as you're trying to make it sound.
 
Brattus said:
After a little thought I realized the above post was rather naive.

Let's use the 911 sub forum as an example.
There is simply no reason to have that sub forum open and there hasn't been for the past several years.
The same posters go over the same issues again and again, thread after thread.
Everything that could be covered on the subject has been covered time and time again.
The only reason anyone is still posting there is because the sub forum is open to post in.

The posters in that sub forum are the same as the posters responding to threads elsewhere on the forum who's only purpose is to get a huge response.

The most logical response to such threads is of course no response at all.
In my opinion the posters on here respond to the "hate threads" because they feel they are actually doing something that is real in the real world.

They believe that when someone post that black people should be ground up as pet food or something similar they have to stand up and fight it or such thoughts will spread like a wild fire and once rational people will begin to not only believe such things but also act on them.

They have to fight the good fight!
They have to save the world for democracy!
They have to stop the hate with hate for the hater!

The reality however is quite different.
The truth being that nothing on this internet forum holds any meaning in the real world.
Posters sit at there computers for hours reading and typing and they want to believe it is not wasted time. That it stands for something when it really has no meaning or effect on reality whatsoever.

Take a look at Mr. Lancaster and his efforts to stop Sylvia Browne.
No matter how nice of a man he is(and he is a very nice man)no matter how good of a writer he is(and he is a very good writer)the only thing that is ever going to stop Sylvia Browne once she made it on television is death.

It is very important to Mr. Lancaster to believe his web site has had an impact on Sylvia Browne because of the huge amount of time, work and money he has devoted to it.
I don't blame him. I would feel the same.

But along with Mr. Lancaster the defenders of the good fight posters are just typing words on the internet.
That's it.

Meanwhile in reality people will still flock to so called psychics shoving as much money as they have at them so they don't have to do the work to solve there own problems.
Racist, Nazis and haters will still spew out hate and lies because they let their world die around them and it is all they have left to make themselves still feel alive.

Pity and silence should be the only response.

But feeding the hate, lies and stupidity on this forum is what gives most posters on here some kind of meaning to there life.

Sad really.
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It is true that the world pays zero attention to JREF.
But the members are a cross-section of the world, and as that, our responses can be extrapolated to how the world would, (or should) respond to such situations as hate speech.
When the circumstances of the speech permit a criticism.
That loopy Christian lady condemned for dissing Islam for example.
Shoulda known better.
Wouldn't draw much attention here in civilization, but where the Imams rule, such speech is hate speech, and death follows.
 
I've moved a few posts to AAH because they were ignoring not one but two mod boxes.
Tricky said:
While it is acceptable to talk about moderation of other forums here, be very careful to confine it to issues with other forums. Discussion of moderation of this forum should be confined to the Forum Management subforum. I realize the issues are closely related, so please exercise caution.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
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Darat said:
This is not a thread about the Forum's moderation of "hate speech" - use the Forum Management section for those types of discussions.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat
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I realize that it is difficult to separate a discussion of this topic with what is happening in this forum, but you must try to do so. There are a couple of threads in Forum Management that essentially touch this topic. If you wish to retrieve your posts and make them appropriate for those threads, you may do so, but please keep FM discussions out of the public threads.

Thank You
Tricky
Posted By: Tricky
 
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