we're waiting...
Hamas threatens attacks against Israeli targets abroad
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we're waiting...
no, its his assertion that this is what all Orthodox believe. so he must PROVE that this is what all Orthodox believe.
do you really think that providing the opinion of one single Rabbi is enough to confirm such a blanket generalization about the opinions of millions of people?
stop making excuses for the guy and let him do his homework.
Parky, for the zillionth time: "the holocaust was the will of God like everything else in history" is one thing. "The holocaust was done by avenging angels, the Nazis, to punish the Jews for zionism" is something else completely -- for the same reason that "we don't know why Haiti suffered, but it's God will" is one thing and "I know! I know! It's because they made a pact with the devil overthrowing slavery 170 years ago!" is something else altogether.
The very quote you yourself gave shows NK -- unlike the vast majority of Orthodox Jews, including non- and even anti-zionist ones -- think they know why the holocaut happened, they know it is the zionists' fault, and they know Hitler & co. were "messengers of divine wrath".
The very quote you yourself gave shows NK -- unlike the vast majority of Orthodox Jews, including non- and even anti-zionist ones -- think they know why the holocaut happened, they know it is the zionists' fault, and they know Hitler & co. were "messengers of divine wrath".
I'd like to see evidence of this wide-spread dissagreement with NK on the Holocaust, Zionism, and their meetings with Ahmedinajad and the Holocaust-denial club-med.
I wanna see Sword back up his claims with real research, for once. We already have two threads now where he makes wild claims, which have no connection to reality or provided evidence.
p.s. I did read an article that claims that some Rabbi at NK doubted the Holocaust death figures are legit....but no proof of this was provided. However, if true, its very disgusting.
(unnecessary jab at Skeptic removed)
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bigjelmapro
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Did I say manifesto? No. Influence to strict adherence to Islamic law in government and the ruling of ones country without Western influence. The means in which to do so differed greatly amongst these different groups or factions, as well as the scope to which to pursue jihad and who is should be restricted to (which extremists also condemning other Muslims as apostates, which Qutb disagreed with).
Interesting article though. Identifies the Muslim Brotherhood as 'moderates' (albeit there were a number of factions), as being opposed to global jihad (yet ignoring regional jihad), and being opposed by the very wings/offshoots it has fathered.
There's a number of different directions the Muslim Brotherhood went, which includes the various offshoots, since the time of Qutb. Even in Israel and the territories, the difference between North and South factions, both influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood, are substantially different in their outlook and interpreted Qutb's methods of enforcing Sharia law and gaining influence, one more passively through democratic means, others through, as stated in the article given regarding Hizb ut-Tahrir “seek to bring society to a boiling point.”
Personally, I agree with Bernard Lewis's interpretation of the democratic route of the Muslim brotherhood of: “one man, one vote, one time.” But that's up in the air what this group in Egypt does for instance since the evidence for the Muslim Brotherhood's intentions are quite thin (of which is also mentioned in the article).
Its a wait and see game when enough influence and power is garnered.
I said influenced.
I didn't miss it, just didn't seem to be in line with how Hamas has been approaching the method in which it would seek Israel's destruction. Especially with the updated numbers in the lowering birthrate of Israeli Muslims. They would need to do a lot of waiting at which point, the international community would have lost interest in this conflict, mind you the drying up of humanitarian aid which seems to go in Fatah and Hamas officials' pockets and lavish lifestyles.
Which obviously won't happen in the foreseeable future.
You've stated that there's this increased growth in the settlements in the WB, which I personally haven't seen beyond the natural growth. I haven't witnessed much, if any, expansion in the physical boundaries of these settlements either. And as I've said before, the brunt of these smaller settlements (beyond the ones already put on the table for final status agreements) and illegal outposts will be pulled out of, so I don't see where this impossibility lies.
Mind you, over 65% of those in the WB consist of Haredim of which their leaders have stated (have to find the Haaretz articles regarding this) that they don't have issues moving out into Israel proper or to be absorbed by the future Palestinian state. They also comprise the majority of the natural population growth in the WB. So again, where's the impossibility in the two-state solution.
And you make this assumption how? Are you stating that any and all unarmed civilians ferrying goods to Mecca should be slaughtered, plundered and dismembered? Here again, in contradiction to the holy month of Rejab and to rules of engagement/war. Definitely not the first time this prophet has had last moment epiphanies in absolute contradiction to his previous ones.
And so is honor killings. Doesn't absolve Mohammed from proclaiming this as a religious law in addition to number of other laws/practices/traditions adopted from other religions and pagan rituals. I fail to see the relevance of the person who first made this holy month to the one who adopted the same concept and doesn't follow it through.
And somehow you did answer what I stated to which you posed question in the first place?:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5587615&postcount=158
Mine's a bit lengthier and doesn't have to do with a game of trivial numbers. Relevance again?
bigjelmapro
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Hmm, where have I heard this before? A request you'll actually admit exists when its given? Or one that you will ignore as a number of other ones?
ie http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5583808&postcount=91
"This decision does not have to do with their policy/desire of not killing Jews worldwide in the long-run."
and of course, no evidence to back up this statement was given. its just another part of the "Hamas is much worse than you think" mantra.
oh, come on Sword of Truth. show us those researching skills!!!
Sword_Of_Truth
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Accusing a jew of being a Holocaust Denier is ok only when it's you doing it, Parky?
No, actually, it was your assertion that NK's beliefs are in accord with other anti-Zionist Orthodox jews. Then you gave a quote form the Satmars that, as Skeptic pointed out, doesn't support your proposition. So, rather than admit you were wrong, you decided to pick on someone who deigned to disagree with you and dared them to do the leg work you tried to perform and failed (because you have a habitual inability to understand your own links).
You claimed NK's ideas are consonant with other anti-Zionist orthodox groups. So you need to show us quotes form those groups. Nobody's fooled by your attempt to fob the work onto Sword of Truth.
Really, Parky, this is obstinate even for you. Normally you devolve into smilie obfuscations well before you embarrass yourself this badly.
Edited to add: To clarify the timeline.
In post 213, you made the affirmative claim that the NK's views are similar to the Satmars. Your attempts to prove that, however, were easily debunked because their views are not similar in the important respect that the Satmars don't revere Hitler as an angel.
After 40 posts of trying to dodge this issue, in post 265, you demanded that Sword of Truth do your groundwork. It's generally not a good idea, parky, to lie about how a thread has developed when the thread is still there for everyone to read.
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funny stuff!!
anyways, Sword of Truth claims to have posted the opinion of Orthodox Jews, by quoting this one Rabbi in London.
He does not say this is one Rabbi, who may or may not represent the greater Orthodox community. He does however, say "this is what Orthodox Jews think".
Well, I find it highly insulting, and indeed kinda offensive, for him to suggest that the views of one single obscure Rabbi in London, represent the views of millions of other Orthodox Jews, throughout the world.
How is the best way to get a sense of what Orthodox Jews think about Naturei Karta and their anti-Zionist/pro-Ahmedinajad ideas? By doing some research into.
I did this research this morning. I learned a lot.
But it is not I who is claiming to have a handle on the views of Orthodox Jews, regarding NK. It is Sword of Truth, who has made this claim.
"I pointed out what orthodox jews really feel about NKs bloodthirsty bigotry and what was your response? That the rabbis opinion didn't count because he isn't from New York City."
The burden is his, to prove his case. The burden of proof is always on the person making the claim, and the more incredible the claim..the more thorough the evidence needs to be.
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he mistakenly asserted that 90% of Europe's Jews died in the Holocaust. he has corrected this mistake, and I acknowledged it.
however, playing with numbers like this is exactly what Holocaust deniers do, so its not that hard to understand where my motivations lay.
Sword_Of_Truth
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Accusing a jew of being a Holocaust denier is only ok when you it, Parky?
no. anyone can accuse a Jew of being a Holocaust denier. just have a **** load of evidence to back it up.
what say you, Sword of Truth?
bigjelmapro
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You missed the example of Ahmed Wahabe. Evidence provided, skimmed over as usual. Training and financial support for terrorist attacks outside of Israel shows this intent and following up on their charter.
Response from the Hamas whitewasher?
Sword_Of_Truth
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Is calling a jewish person a Holocaust Denier ok only when you do it?
FireGarden
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Glad you liked it.
Olmert and Barak have already voiced their concerns. And they're not the only ones. So it's not as if what I'm saying is all that loony.
That's not what I said. It's a matter of whether these were theives or not. The Muslims claim they were, because the Quraish took Muslim property from Mecca and sold it.
The relevance is that you talked about an "Islamic endgame", with various references to genocide. But it's clear you can't answer the question: "For how many years did Muslims rule Jerusalem before they became the majority religion?" You seem to think it's a simpler question than I do. And the answer to the question would shed light on Islam's general attitude to living with other faiths.