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Hamas Must Recognise Israel

The Fool said:
hands up all those who believe the wishes and views of any palestinian faction matter in the inevitable decision on what,if any, land is to be available for a Palestinian state.
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"Any palestinian faction????" Sorry but Hamas isn't just "any palestinian faction." That is just another excuse to cloud the issue. Hamas was elected by a large majority to lead the Palestinian people. It is the ruling party of the Palestinian Authority. It is not some "random faction" who's ideology has no bearing on the mideast issue.

The Fool said:
Until there is some form of indication from those that have the power to actually decide this then it really is impossible to judge if Palestinians who refuse to recognise Israel are refusing based on crazy or not so crazy grounds.
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Hamas is "those that have the power" on the Palestinian side. Hamas runs the Palestinian Authority. Refusing to recognize your largest trading partner and next door neighbor is frankly crazy in my books. Nuts. Bonkers. Wacko. Calling for it's destruction and attacking it endlessly, when they have 100 times the firepower, is even more insane.

The Fool said:
I Think, given reasonable division of lands, that it is unreasonable for palestinian factions to dismiss recognition out of hand.
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So.... unless you give us "A" we will continue to do "B". Unless you give us everything we want we refuse to recognize Israel or stop trying to destroy it. That's called extortion.

The Fool said:
I would also not blame them for refusing to even consider an outcome that makes a palestinian state impossible.
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The irony is that by not recognizing Israel Hamas puts the Palestinian state on hold.

The Fool said:
What is so hard about taking that off the table? Israel is prepared to allow a viable palestinian state arn't they?
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Israel cannot negotiate with a group who doesn't recognize Israel's right to exsist. I dunno how many people and how many times you have to be told this. I say it. Darat says it. Webfusion says it. Randfan says it. Steverino says it. Gurdur says it. The UN says it. The EU says it. The US says it. Russia says it. Jordan says it. Egypt says it. The only parties who disagree is A) you, meaning the fool, and B) Hamas.
 
TF asks:
you say Israel owes palestine nothing...does this mean that the only land palestine will ever get is any land that Israel wishes to allow?
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Of course, TF.
You know that is the case.
The palestinians should say 'thank you'.
What's their problem? They had no State before, ever.
Israel went to elections and the outcome was the mandate for KADIMA to perform a completely unilateral, non-negotiated 'convergence' (consolidation) of the settlements and leave 95% of the West Bank. Sounds fair to me.

Here is the deal: The palestinians care primarily about the Temple Mount. It is the focus, the core, the essence of their struggle. One of the outer retaining walls of this area is holy to jews. That specific portion of "east jerusalem" will not be relinquished. It just won't. Trust me.
As a matter of fact, nor will Israel withdraw from various other sectors (ramat eshkol, pisgat ze'ev, neve yaakov, ramat rahel, etc) that were captured from Jordan in 1967. It is now part of Israel. These lands were annexed.

Once the palestinians are left with 95% of the lands on the West Bank and 100% of Gaza, and still don't manage to create their viable state and want to keep whining and complaining, too 'effing bad for them. Let them wish for the destruction of Israel for a thousand years. Who cares?
 
Sabra said:
Israel cannot negotiate with a group who doesn't recognize Israel's right to exsist. I dunno how many people and how many times you have to be told this. I say it. Darat says it. Webfusion says it. Randfan says it. Steverino says it. Gurdur says it. The UN says it. The EU says it. The US says it. Russia says it. Jordan says it. Egypt says it. The only parties who disagree is A) you, meaning the fool, and B) Hamas.
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you can add me to that list too. With one addition.....when we demand they recognize Israel there is also a commitment made that the "Israel" they are required to recognise is not of a form that renders a viable palestinian state impossible.


and lastly....Israel can negotiate with anyone they wish. "cannot" is not true. "will not" or "cannot reasonably be expected to" or many other variations on that theme are all valid but "Cannot" is simply not true.
 
The Fool said:
you can add me to that list too. With one addition.....when we demand they recognize Israel there is also a commitment made that the "Israel" they are required to recognise is not of a form that renders a viable palestinian state impossible.


and lastly....Israel can negotiate with anyone they wish. "cannot" is not true. "will not" or "cannot reasonably be expected to" or many other variations on that theme are all valid but "Cannot" is simply not true.
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Well you, for one, have shown in this thread that YOU cannot be negotiated with, and you are Australian! Now Israel, sorry, "Israel" is supposed to negotiate with, say, the president of Iran who wants Israel's people killed, not removed, not marginalized, but killed.
 
steverino said:
Well you, for one, have shown in this thread that YOU cannot be negotiated with, and you are Australian! Now Israel, sorry, "Israel" is supposed to negotiate with, say, the president of Iran who wants Israel's people killed, not removed, not marginalized, but killed.
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I said nothing that could be reasonably interpreted as saying anything about who Israel should or shouldn't negotiate with....I clearly and simply said that it is just not correct to say Israel "cannot" negotiate. Israel can choose to negotiate or not negotiate with whoever it pleases....read it again.

I've explained the quotations around Israel, did you read the explanation?

Your last 3 contributions to this threads have all been about me.....I'm flattered but am more interested in your views on the topic.
 
The Fool said:
when we demand they recognize Israel there is also a commitment made that the "Israel" they are required to recognise is not of a form that renders a viable palestinian state impossible.
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[SIZE=-1]Hamas must recognize Israel in it's current form because Hamas must [/SIZE]honor past peace deals that the previous Palestinian leaders made with Israel. I say it. Darat says it. Webfusion says it. Randfan says it. Steverino says it. Gurdur says it. The UN says it. The EU says it. The US says it. Russia says it. Jordan says it. Egypt says it. The only parties who disagree with that is Hamas and you.

But let's not beat around the bush, Hamas doesn't recognize Israel because of the "form" it is in. Hamas doesn't recognize Israel because it is sworn to it's destruction. I can read the Hamas charter, so can anyone else, it's plastered all over the internet:

-"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it"
-"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."
-"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
-"In face of the Jews' usurpation of Palestine, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised."

I can also hear what Hamas leaders say. I can watch their speeches at YouTube and elsewhere, so can anyone else, it's plastered all over the internet:

Mahmoud Zahar reiterated that his movement would not ever recognize Israel's right to exist, nor did he reveal any willingness to negotiate. "Negotiation is not our aim; negotiation is a method," he said.

Palestinian PM Declares: "We'll never recognize Israel"

The ruling Palestinian Hamas party will never recognize Israel, the ISNA news agency quoted Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal as saying Saturday in Teheran.

So please don't tell me my eyes and ears are mistaken and that Hamas really wants to recognize Israel, and that it just can't "in it's present form." That is a load of horse manure.

The bankrupt Palestinian Authority is heavily dependent on foreign assistance. The Palestinian economy is heavily dependent on trade with Israel. The Palestinians are totally out-gunned by the IDF. The Palestinian people deserve better than international isolation due to medieval Hamas ideology.
 
Sabra said:
[SIZE=-1]Hamas must recognize Israel in it's current form because Hamas must [/SIZE]honor past peace deals that the previous Palestinian leaders made with Israel. I say it. Darat says it. Webfusion says it. Randfan says it. Steverino says it. Gurdur says it. The UN says it. The EU says it. The US says it. Russia says it. Jordan says it. Egypt says it. The only parties who disagree with that is Hamas and you.
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LOL...thats a cute attempt to align me with Hamas, but its not going to get any originality points. Hamas is a bunch of fundie wackjobs who will probably never be able to bring themselves to drop the fundie line.....but Hamas will not last forever either. We could assist that prospect, or we could continue to allow them to suggest there is no viable alternative to thier way of thinking. are you interested in cutting thier platform from under them or simply moaning about them?

[/SIZE][/I]So please don't tell me my eyes and ears are mistaken and that Hamas really wants to recognize Israel, and that it just can't "in it's present form." That is a load of horse manure.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
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I get a bit weary of this but please quote me saying that Hamas really wants to recognise israel? From what I see and read Hamas like to present Palestinians with a vision that it is the Hamas way or a life under the rule of evil jooooos.....how about we provide an alternate vision?
 
Sabra said:
Hamas must recognize Israel in it's current form because Hamas must honor past peace deals that the previous Palestinian leaders made with Israel. I say it. Darat says it. Webfusion says it. Randfan says it. Steverino says it. Gurdur says it. The UN says it. The EU says it. The US says it. Russia says it. Jordan says it. Egypt says it. The only parties who disagree with that is Hamas and you.

...snip...
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I'm going to disagree with this - I don't think Hamas has to honour previous peace agreements and so on. After all it isn't unusual for new governments coming into power to alter a previous administration's foreign policy. I don't even think they have to accept Israel as it is today for Israel and Hamas to be able to negotiate in good faith. However the first step in my opinion, if Hamas wants to be considered a legitimate government of a state, is for it to act like one, which in this case does mean it accepts in principle that Israel does and will continue to exist.

As I said when Hamas was elected as the government of the Palestinian people (in a reasonably fair and well conducted election), the Palestinian people have to live with the consequences of their choices. And whether Hamas at the local level seemed a better choice then the previous apparently very corrupt party or not I do beleive that Palestinians had to know Hamas's policy towards Israel i.e. that it seeks its destruction. Therefore they effectively choose as the pseudo-state of Palestine to declare war on Israel.

Whilst of course Israel can still negotiate with the Palestinian representatives it has to be seen for what it is - negotiations to end a unilaterally declared war.

Sabra said:
But let's not beat around the bush, Hamas doesn't recognize Israel because of the "form" it is in. Hamas doesn't recognize Israel because it is sworn to it's destruction. I can read the Hamas charter, so can anyone else, it's plastered all over the internet:

...snip...
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I agree, as far as I am aware Hamas has never indicated that it will even consider any form of a "two state" arrangement, Israel has many times.
 
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The Fool said:
Hamas is a bunch of fundie wackjobs who will probably never be able to bring themselves to drop the fundie line.....
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Yet they won a landslide election by popular vote. Seems there are alot of "fundie wackjobs" who support them.

The Fool said:
We could assist that prospect, or we could continue to allow them to suggest there is no viable alternative to thier way of thinking.
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The Palestinian people definitely deserve better than "fundie wackjobs" who take their orders from Iran.

The Fool said:
Is what we are expecting palestinians to accept if they are required to recognise a state of "Israel" with no boundries to what that nation is....
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The state of Israel has boundries which have been previously negotiated with the Lebanese, Egyptians, Jordanians and Palestinians. That's what all those previous treaties are all about. To then say Israel "has no boundries" is ridiculous.

The Fool said:
are we asking them to recognize and accept an undefined "Israel" and getting upset when they don't?
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The state of Israel is very well defined, with some areas in the West Bank that have yet to be negotiated with the Palestinians. That's what all those previous treaties are all about. To say Israel is "undefined" is also ridiculous.

The Fool said:
Which of these 2 Israels do we want them to recognise..or do we want them to recognize any form of Israel that we may choose in the future?
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You are missing the point which is very simple. The areas you have issue with have yet to be negotiated with the Palestinians. They were being negotiated in 2000, until that funny little thing called the second intifada started.

Darat said:
I'm going to disagree with this - I don't think Hamas has to honour previous peace agreements and so on.
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And that would be a grave error. They would lose everything they have gained since 1993.

Darat said:
I don't even think they have to accept Israel as it is today for Israel and Hamas to be able to negotiate in good faith.
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I disagree 100%. Hamas must "accept Israel as it is today" in order to negotiate how Israel, and Palestine, will be tomorrow.

Darat said:
I do beleive that Palestinians had to know Hamas's policy towards Israel i.e. that it seeks its destruction.
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I agree. Considering Hamas has been around for a decade I am sure when Palestinians were voting for Hamas last January they knew full well what Hamas stands for.

Darat said:
I agree, as far as I am aware Hamas has never indicated that it will even consider any form of a "two state" arrangement, Israel has many times.
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You are correct. All this hemming and hawing over what "should" be recognized by the Palestinians is academic musings. Hamas will never recognize Israel and they openly say it over and over again.
 
webfusion said:
One thing that is quite clear; nobody is talking about the return to the "original mandate territory allocated for the Jewish State" (Which, by definition, would be a reference to the 1920 San Remo maps, based on the Sykes-Picot cartography lines).
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I respectfully disagree. The reference point should be the 1949 cease fire lines, based on the outcome of the first War, since borders are generally drawn in blood.

League of Nations map.

1947 UN pre war map (A strategic absurdity)

What that led to

What the blood in the sand drew (about 7000 dead Iraelis, and aout 15000 dead Arabs.)

However, since none of these lines seem to get consensus at any time, the parties are no further along than arriving in Paris, 1968, and arguing about the shape of the damned table. (Us Vietnam reference.)

DR
 
DR:"The reference point should be the 1949 cease fire lines"

The reference point, sure, but the lines themselves have already been crossed. Israel has drawn new lines. The 1949 Rhodes Maps are useless and obsolete and those lines will never again be used as a determination of Israel's borders. Don't even waste your breath trying to say they should be.

My comment was intended to remind everyone that when saying "palestine" we are talking about the 1920 San Remo definition of Palestine. Not the 1948 truncated version. It is a huge mistake to start the timeline of "palestine" in 1948. That is a fantastic logical error.
Even HAMAS understands that. They want Jordan,too (which is, common-sense dictates, an integral part of palestine, with a palestinian population majority).
 
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webfusion said:
Even HAMAS understands that. They want Jordan,too (which is, common-sense dictates, an integral part of palestine, with a palestinian population majority).
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Yes, and King Hussein, one each Hashemite ruler, put paid to that BS on any number of occasions, to include during the Black September.

DR
 
But the ideological basis of the Jihad to reclaim 'palestine' does not preclude the HAMAS from making every effort to dispose of the jews in the western part of 'palestine' first, and then turn their attention to the Eastern part of 'palestine'

To be sure, the current Hashemite King is perfectly aware of the problem.
 
The Fool said:
hands up all those who believe the wishes and views of any Palestinian faction matter in the inevitable decision on what,if any, land is to be available for a Palestinian state.
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Uhhhh... duh?

Yes, of course. We've still got Hamas saying "we want you dead".

And Israels HAS been willing to make concessions (see Sharon's deal)

Now, you can say that you don't like Sharon's deal or any of the other concessions but if you are intellectually honest you have to admit that Sharon was offering something.

What does Hamas offer? Come on Fool, they offer the destruction of Israel.

Do you see the difference? You demand that Israel come to the table in good faith when Hamas won't even come to the table. Nothing, NOTHING will happen so long as Hamas calls for the destruction of Israel.

Hello? Fool? Anyone out there?
 
The Fool said:
ok then....why the delay?. Why not just draw the borders and be done with it?
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And why would you suppose it would do any good? Fine, I'll join, come on Israel, draw the borders. Let's all agree that Israel should draw the borders then let's all pretend that Hamas will then stop calling for the destruction of Israel. Riiight! :rolleyes:
 
RandFan said:
And why would you suppose it would do any good? Fine, I'll join, come on Israel, draw the borders. Let's all agree that Israel should draw the borders then let's all pretend that Hamas will then stop calling for the destruction of Israel. Riiight! :rolleyes:
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I'm not sure if you are saying someone has claimed a cause effect link between those two things. Hamas are likely to continue to call for the destruction of Israel all the way up to and including the day they become irrelevant. Want to guess how they can become irrelevant? Well randfan, they become irrelevant when you don't allow them to run the process....like giving them defacto veto on any progress by telling them all they have to do to derail the process is continue to simply refuse to sing the right song.

This is exactly what Hamas wants and needs.
You are being played like a cheap violin and you don't even realise it.
 
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The Fool said:
I'm not sure if you are saying someone has claimed a cause effect link between those two things. Hamas are likely to continue to call for the destruction of Israel all the way up to and including the day they become irrelevant. Want to guess how they can become irrelevant? Well RandFan, they become irrelevant when you don't allow them to run the process....like giving them defacto veto on any progress by telling them all they have to do to derail the process is continue to simply refuse to sing the right song.

This is exactly what Hamas wants and needs.
You are being played like a cheap violin and you don't even realise it.
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?

Huh? What process? What are you smoking? "De-facto veto"? What "progress"? There is no process. There is no progress.

So, let me see if I understand your argument.
  1. Pointing out that Hamas is calling for the destruction of Israel is playing into the hands of Hamas.
  2. Pointing out the fact that diplomacy with a government that calls for your destruction is pointless is playing into the hands of Hamas.
  3. Hamas is a terrorist organization.
  4. Giving them what they want want will make them irrelevant and they will play nice and leave Israel alone.
  5. Israel shold follow Neville Chamberlain's lead and appease Hamas.
Do you really believe that?
 
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