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Hamas Must Recognise Israel

The Fool

Penultimate Amazing
The Fool
Joined
Aug 1, 2002
Messages
16,499
I believe it is an essential prerequisite to any sort of future peace...so I have a question.

What does "recognize Israel" mean....what are they being asked to recognize? Is it reasonable that what they are expected to recognize be reasonably defined?
 
Hey that's a good question, I was wondering that myself.

...umm, nope, I have nothing more to add.
 
Recognize as in accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel in peaceful international relations.

I just threw that together—it probably isn't the best definition.

I would say that Hamas "recognizes" that Israel "exists" but considers it to be a renegade group that occupies territory by terror, thus putting Hamas in disagreement with much of the world.

A bit like the situation when Sinn Fein did not recognise the Royal Ulster Constabulary as a legitimate branch of the police force of the UK, but as an illegitimate occupying army in part of Ireland.

ETA: I agree that the hope of conflict resolution is slim indeed. It can only be resolved under these terms (so that there is no more conflict) if either Hamas or Israel is exterminated
 
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acuity said:
Recognize as in accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel in peaceful international relations.
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I like that definition....but would it require a footnote that included what "the state of Israel" actually consists of?
 
acuity said:
Recognize as in accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel in peaceful international relations.
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Pretty simple if you ask me. One has to accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel in order to have [SIZE=-1]direct negotiations with it. If you don't [/SIZE]recognize Israel's right to exist then what's the point negotiating[SIZE=-1] the final status and borders of Israel and the future Palestinian state.

By not [/SIZE]accepting the legitimacy of the state of Israel Hamas has essentially painted itself into a corner for which there is no exit.

The Fool said:
I like that definition....but would it require a footnote that included what "the state of Israel" actually consists of?
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You have to accept the legitimacy of the state of Israel in order to define what "the state of Israel" actually consists of.
 
The Fool said:
I believe it is an essential prerequisite to any sort of future peace...so I have a question.

What does "recognize Israel" mean....what are they being asked to recognize? Is it reasonable that what they are expected to recognize be reasonably defined?
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Why not ask them? Seriously they don't seem to have any problems in saying that Israel should be destroyed, therefore they must know what they mean by "Israel". And since it is their definition then surely asking them to recognise Israel is just asking them to recognise whatever it is they actively seek to (at the moment) destroy?

On a personal level I think a good starting point would be something like "We recognise the state of Israel as a legitimate state however we do not recognise the current borders that are enforced by the state of Israel."
 
Darat said:
Why not ask them? Seriously they don't seem to have any problems in saying that Israel should be destroyed,
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That has always puzzled me. The Hamas charter uses the word Israel:

- Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.
- Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.
-Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Yet Hamas refuses to recognize Israel eventhough they define it's existence in their own charter. :boggled:
 
Any bets on the chances that Hammass will ever recognize that Israel wexists prior to their (Hannasses) destruction? Not from me - they are primitives and not adaptable in any meaningful way in terms of permanent survival/influence as that would require a real meaningful change in their mental processes/processing.
 
Sabra said:
That has always puzzled me. The Hamas charter uses the word Israel:

- Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it.
- Arab countries surrounding Israel are asked to open their borders before the fighters from among the Arab and Islamic nations so that they could consolidate their efforts with those of their Moslem brethren in Palestine.
-Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."

Yet Hamas refuses to recognize Israel eventhough they define it's existence in their own charter. :boggled:
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This is what's known as parsing the real world jref style, with a tip if the hat to Hymie the robot. ;)
 
Darat said:
On a personal level I think a good starting point would be something like "We recognise the state of Israel as a legitimate state however we do not recognise the current borders that are enforced by the state of Israel."
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Sounds reasonable to me, Darat. But, er, how much land are ya' talking about here? I mean, I think YOU are reasonable, and THEY are not. This slope sounds very slippery to me. Once the Hamas camel sticks its nose under Israel's tent, Israel could get chipped away and become just an idea, or worse, a memory, with no land to it at all.

Reminds me of back in my hippy days one could legally "consume" magic mushrooms but not "possess" them. You need to possess something, otherwise your face ends up grovelling in a cow pattie.:boggled:
 
steverino said:
Israel could get chipped away and become just an idea, or worse, a memory, with no land to it at all.
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If it is reasonable for Israeli self assurance to have boundries defined on what is recognizes as "Israel" is it not unreasonable to extend the same to palestinians? Demanding that Israel be recognized is absolutely reasonable...I would say essential... but as you put it, the fear of "get chipped away and become just an idea, or worse, a memory, with no land to it at all." Is what we are expecting palestinians to accept if they are required to recognise a state of "Israel" with no boundries to what that nation is....are we asking them to recognize and accept an undefined "Israel" and getting upset when they don't?

Which of these 2 Israels do we want them to recognise..or do we want them to recognize any form of Israel that we may choose in the future?
 

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The Fool said:
If it is reasonable for Israeli self assurance to have boundries defined on what is recognizes as "Israel" is it not unreasonable to extend the same to palestinians?
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Aside from the fact that israel's changing borders have something to do with the incessant and continued Arab attempt to destroy it and genocide its (jewish) residents, the demand to recognize israel has nothing to do with recognizing this or that particular border. This couldn't be the case, even logically, since this recognition is supposed to be a precondition to peace talks, which will discuss borders. The demand to recognize israel means, obviously, something quite different: to stop attempting to destroy the jewish state and killing its people, which is--openly and consistently--Hamas' goal.

Just as obviously, you are well aware of all this, and your sudden "inability" to understand what "recognize israel" could possibly mean (how unfair to demand such a vague thing from Hamas) is dishonest: it is only your usual, insinuating, say-it-without-actually-saying-it way of telling us that you counsider recognizing israel a waaaaaaaaaay too strong and unfair of a demand to make of the Palestinians in general, and of Hamas in particular. Stop killing jews?! Accept they have a right to live in israel?!?! What awful thing will they demand next?'

You can now stop pretending you "don't understand" what recognizing israel means, please; you're not fooling anybody, you know. Of course, I expect below a furious denounciation from you of how I totally misunderstood you perfectly honest puzzlement about what "recognizing israel" means, how you never even imagined such an honest, upright question could be misrepresented as supporting Hamas and its goals, blah blah blah.
 
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Skeptic said:
The demand to recognize israel means, obviously, something quite different: to stop attempting to destroy the jewish state and killing its people, which is--openly and consistently--Hamas' goal.
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well, you may feel its obvious and it probably is obvious to you...but recognition of Israel means something completely different to stopping attacks on Israelis, they are two totally different things. So all I am asking is what do you want them to recognise? Tell me what "the jewish state" is can you do that and leave all the rest of the garbage at home, I don't particularly want to see you thrown out of here again because you can't control yourself.
 
Please, Fool, please.

To repeat:

You can now stop pretending you "don't understand" what recognizing israel means, please; you're not fooling anybody, you know.
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Skeptic said:
Please, Fool, please.

To repeat:
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It is plain and obvious what "recognise Israel" means....It is the same as "recognise nation X"....just tell me what you demand is recognized. Can you do that?

to turn it around, would you be prepared to "recognize palestine" I'm not going to tell you what "palestine" is...it may or may not incluse Jerusalem, it may or may not include some, most or all of the original British mandate. Can you make a commitment "recognise it" please?

I'd like you to agree to purchase the contents of this brown box, once you agree we will talk about what is in the box...fair enough?
 
To repeat, Fool: asking stupid questions and pretend you don't understand what "recognize israel" means, or that it is too vague, is simply not credible. You're just pretending not to understand because you think the demand that Hamas recognize israel is waaaaaaay to harsh, as it actually requires it to stop killing jews. Please feel free to declare "victory" in the discussion because I "refused to answer your questions".
 
Skeptic said:
To repeat, Fool: asking stupid questions and pretend you don't understand what "recognize israel" means, or that it is too vague, is simply not credible. You're just pretending not to understand because you think the demand that Hamas recognize israel is waaaaaaay to harsh, as it actually requires it to stop killing jews. Please feel free to declare "victory" in the discussion because I "refused to answer your questions".
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I'm not interested in declaring "victory" I just cannot see the point in demanding that someone recognize X when you have not the slightest intention of telling them what X is....

But anyway, feel free to return with some input further on in the thread if you come up with any ideas on what it is that you demand is recognized.

My own personal opinion of what the recognition demand should be is that "Israel" is the 67 borders (or whatever other name you wish to call them) plus the areas currently containing the large west bank settlements (everything behind the walls)...less east Jerusalem and a "free passage" rail and road link between Gaza and the west bank....no more and no less. what is your opinion?
 
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