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Gun controll?

How are we supposed to rise up if they start getting too big for their pants? What if they force us to have personal monitoring devises? If they have all the guns, what are we supposed to do? Is the right to free speech, free thought, free expression and privacy not important?

Paranoia! paranoia! get your paranoia here. All shapes and sizes catered for. Having trouble finding real life threats to justify your gun lust? No problem missus we're doing a two for one special deal on imagined threats this week. Buy big gubberment, get crack addicted negroes for free. Only the freshest tastiest paranoia - best in the market or your money back.
 
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Hi

... and the poor bloody civilians equipped with small arms certainly did a great job of repulsing them.


To be fair: It may well have prevented an invasion of the left coast by the Japanese military.

Admiral Yamamoto, who had spent time in the US and was fond of cowboy stories, counseled the folks planning the invasion against the idea.

His most memorable quote, to me, was, "there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

How very Japanese and cowboy, both.

I would very strongly advise against underestimating the capabilities of 65 million pissed off Americans with hunting rifles.
 
Yes, that's the same.....

Good lord man, I have paranoia issues and I think you're raving.


Seriously, Mark, there is an earlier (long) post of Jonathan's where it's fairly clear he has some serious issues which obviously need professional help. I don't think there's anything we can say on an internet forum that can really help him here, and it would be all too easy to make things worse.

Rolfe.
 
Hi




He's right, you know. Gun control doesn't lead to fascist government!

The communists were very fond of it too.

As are a number of Western European Governments.

This wouldn't be a logical fallacy would it? Why, yes it would. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, I believe.
 
Seriously, Mark, there is an earlier (long) post of Jonathan's where it's fairly clear he has some serious issues which obviously need professional help. I don't think there's anything we can say on an internet forum that can really help him here, and it would be all too easy to make things worse.

Rolfe.

That's true. I appologise for my rashness, but the first part of my post stands.
 
Jonathan

Again; name me a single modern western democracy where the scenario you outline has happened. And explain to me how small arms will beat a real army.
 
To be fair: It may well have prevented an invasion of the left coast by the Japanese military.

.


I bounced that idea off my history buff father in law. He just laughed saying that there's no way the Japanese could have mustered the needed manpower to mount such an invasion, let alone hold anything.
 
Paranoia! paranoia! get your paranoia here. All shapes and sizes catered for. Having trouble finding real life threats to justify your gun lust? No problem missus we're doing a two for one special deal on imagined threats this week. Buy big gubberment, get crack addicted negroes for free. Only the freshest tastiest paranoia - best in the market or your money back.

Well, by all means, convince me that it probably won't happen. Are you saying the constitution means ANYTHING to somebody who's really interested in controlling everything? Please, convince me. Also, like I said, I don't even like to wield guns. I'm much more a sword person. But I'll do it if means not letting the world become a living hell. (I'm not trolling. I really just want to be convince that I'm just paranoid.)

Also, I notice that a lot of you aren't addressing my points, you're just saying that I'm paranoid or that my arguments are ridiculous.
 
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Gagglegnash,

I am reflecting on the accidental death through firearms figures you presented. If we had a similar rate here the gun deaths would increase from 50 a year to 216.

I am wondering if I have got that calculation correct.

In an earlier post you said that you have all sorts of training and safety procedures. It would take us a while to get used to them so I presume our death rate would initially be higher.

Also as you pointed out we have huge alcohol problems, although I am pleased to report that the latest stats show the girls are catching us blokes up. Would you say that arming aggressive drunks would put the gun death rate up or down ?

I am just trying to get a picture of what things could be like.
 
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Well, by all means, convince me that it probably won't happen. Are you saying the constitution means ANYTHING to somebody who's really interested in controlling everything? Please, convince me. Also, like I said, I don't even like to wield guns. I'm much more a sword person. But I'll do it if means not letting the world become a living hell. (I'm not trolling. I really just want to be convince that I'm just paranoid.)

Also, I notice that a lot of you aren't addressing my points, you're just saying that I'm paranoid or that my arguments are ridiculous.

WHAT points?

Seriously, you haven't made any that I could see.
 
WHAT points?

Seriously, you haven't made any that I could see.

Have you ever heard of "Problem, Reaction, Solution"? The government creates a problem in order to get a public reaction, and the solution is to take away an essential liberty which was the plan before the "problem" arose. So, with loss of privacy, the citizens would DEMAND their privacy to be taken away. This infringes on my right to pursue happiness, and part of my happiness is being secret and hard to figure out. If I can be predicted, I'm just a close like everybody else. I've lost my identity.

I know it sounds ridiculous, even to me, but that just goes to show you how traumatized I am...
 
I know it sounds ridiculous, even to me, but that just goes to show you how traumatized I am...

1. Get help. I'm not being mean, or nasty, but get help.

2. Yes, that is ridiculous. Unless you think the government uses 1984 as a manual, this is unfounded. How would the government create such a situation?
 
Also as you pointed out we have huge alcohol problems, although I am pleased to report that the latest stats show the girls are catching us blokes up. Would you say that arming aggressive drunks would put the gun death rate up or down ?

It's really a state to state thing but many states have laws against being in the possession of a firearm while under the influence. In fact some states prohibit carrying a firearm in establishments that serve alcohol.

That doesn't stop people from being idiots though.
 
Hi
If your all neighbours are like that, then you're screwed no matter what. But if a small minority might be, then surely there are two issues - better healthcare, and finding a way to ensure they can't get guns?


Only problem is: He can go to England and get a gun for £50.

I find it interesting that the BBC appears to have taken down the story about the young man that went to London, I think it was, asked around for a gun, and 24 hours later, had a Mac 10 and a magazine for £200 (again, I think). That's a machine gun, folks, and he got it for less than I could here in The States.

Maybe they thought it would give people bad ideas.
 
1. Get help. I'm not being mean, or nasty, but get help.

2. Yes, that is ridiculous. Unless you think the government uses 1984 as a manual, this is unfounded. How would the government create such a situation?

Yeah, I probably should...

BTW, if anybody is interesting in helping me dissect the zeitgeist movie, please PM me.
 
Hi

As are a number of Western European Governments.

This wouldn't be a logical fallacy would it? Why, yes it would. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, I believe.


We've yet to see. The old problem of boiling a frog, if you remember.
 
His most memorable quote, to me, was, "there will be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

How very Japanese and cowboy, both.

:D Yeah, but he'd also have an extremely competent army, navy and air force to compete against. Being sniped at on every corner certainly wouldn't help, but he would also have bigger fish to fry.

I would very strongly advise against underestimating the capabilities of 65 million pissed off Americans with hunting rifles.

I don't doubt that a bunch of determined Americans with rifles can make a damned nuisance of themselves, and I don't doubt they could cause a good number of casualties. But consider the situation in Iraq, where the insurgents are in effect (and ignoring the ideology for a moment) in the position being proposed, that of fighting a resistance against a government they do not want.

It's not so much the small-arms that cause the problems for the allies but mainly the use of HE - artillery rounds improvised into bombs, rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and suchlike - that is making the insurgency work. Without those, you're really reduced to sniping around the edges of the problem. And (unless I'm mistaken) those are already highly restricted in the USA. And even with those, they're not really winning (although I suppose blowing people up until the other side loses the will to go on and gives up may count as such).

I don't really want to derail here, perhaps it's an argument for a different thread.
 
I know it sounds ridiculous, even to me, but that just goes to show you how traumatized I am...


The first step to recovery is recognising you have a problem. Now that you've done that, seriously, get real help from a real world professional. You'll never regret it.

Now, about paranoia.

I just watched the video that started all this. I've never seen such a dishonest, slanted, lying piece of [rule-10] in my life.

I'm not going to comment on the Australian stuff, let Mobyseven and others do that. But as far as the British stuff goes, it's lies.

There have never been public protests against any gun control legislation in Britain. For the very simple reason that a dozen or so people don't make a good show.

Note that all the interviews were with individuals, a very few individuals who were miffed that their pet hobby had been interfered with. Their annoyance had some justification to it, because in fact the measures taken in 1997 were unlikely to make any real difference to gun safety, and were introduced more to appease strong public demand for more legislation. They were cross, and some were over-reacting, but that's it.

Did you notice one man's reference to "60,000 people"? That confirms our earlier information that only 0.1% of the population were affected by these new laws. And you can bet that the speaker didn't minimise the number he quoted either. Why is this? Because before the new legislation, practically nobody kept these sorts of guns. This was a minority interest in a minority sport.

What the NRA are doing in that film is letting US viewers imagine that the British situation is like the American one, with high levels of gun ownership. Then the assumption is that the new legislation affects many many people who are having their civil rights interfered with by a cruel and oppressive government. No. It was a very few people who were cross about having their pet hobby banned. The film makers then sought out the most narked of these people, the few who were prepared to voice their annoyance in the language of the US gun nut, and they had their programme.

What they didn't show was the actual public protests demanding that gun legislation. Now these had quite a respectable turnout and significantly affected the decision to go for more legislation.

What they did show was, as has been pointed out, footage of a demonstration about a diametrically opposed matter. The new legislation which actually required people who wanted to control foxes to use a gun! These people marching en masse were specifically objecting to being told to use guns because they wanted to go on chasing the foxes with dogs.

How dishonest is it to use such footage to imply that this was a reaction to gun control legislation?

There was one particularly nasty part where an old guy turned to the camera and said that if this legislation went through, his way of life was finished. Well, that's what he thought, though I'll bet if you found him now he's still doing what he always did, more or less. However, his concerns had nothing to do with guns being taken away. The use of this clip was just monstrous.

And where did they get that small boy in the school uniform? One ten-year-old who could be persuaded to say that he wanted his dad to take him shooting? One?? One little private schoolboy with an upper-class accent, that was it?

There was another clip (towards the end) of a smart chap talking to camera with the march in the background, exhorting the US not to give in to gun control. He spoke in an English accent, but who was he? The fact is that the march in the back of the shot had nothing to do with gun control. This was a contrived shot, either getting someone to express an opinion on an unrelated matter at the scene, or simply setting it up with an English supporter.

So if you want paranoia, you really need to worry about the NRA guys of yours. They are so dishonest that they are prepared to lie and misrepresent and deceive to get their twisted point of view across. They're your real concern.

Just read through the thread again and note the responses of the British posters here. Everybody is telling you that we're entirely comfortable with strict gun controls. That the gun nut lobby is so small it could probably fit into a single taxi. That while we may think our government are a bunch of morons, we really don't worry at all about the gun issue, because we like it that they clamp down on the bloody things.

You need to realise that the US attitude is the aberration. Almost alone in the developed first world, you have this weird fixation with guns, and they are invested with all sorts of symbolism of freedom and manliness and so on. To the rest of us they're just lethal weapons we're all better off without.

Maybe you'd feel better if you travelled a bit and saw that the US psyche really is quite screwed up on the issue. Don't let is screw you up too. Realise that the manipulative [rule-10s] here are the NRA. They are your enemy, becuase they want you to believe what simply isn't true, to make you afraid and paranoid, for their own purposes.

Don't give in to them. Get help.

Rolfe.
 
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I never said you should be armed to the teeth. I never said you should be armed at all. If you don't want a gun, don't get one. That's fine, but don't tell me as a law abiding citizen that I can't have one.

we're not, so long as you are a law abiding US resident, if you wish to become a UK resident then you will be restricted in the type of firearm which you can own, if you wish to remain law abiding.
 
And Canada. And France. And Germany. And Norway. And Sweden. And Austria. And so on......
 

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