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Gun Control

Bikewer

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Sep 12, 2003
Messages
13,242
Location
St. Louis, Mo.
I notice that “discussions” of the various aspects of gun control tend to get rather contentious…. I plan to muddy the water even further with my thoughts:

I admit to having rather ambiguous notions on this issue. I’m a police officer; in the biz for 30+ years. I’m also a weapons enthusiast. I’ve owned, at one time or another, thirty or forty handguns, a variety of long arms, and as well a variety of non-explosive weapons including bows, blowguns, atlatls, spears, and so forth. I reloaded my own ammo and cast my own bullets.

As a result, I’m familiar with the legal use of firearms in all forms, from sport to self-defense. Of course, I’ve seen the results of the illegal use as well as a result of my employment.

We were given a marvelous document in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, we were given a second amendment that was, to put it mildly, rather poorly worded, at least as it applies to our times. Back in the late 1700s, the “arms” our forbears were speaking of were muzzle loading muskets and rifles. Very effective in massed military formations in use at the time, and nice for taking game as well. Not the sort of thing you’d be likely to try to commit mass murder with. “Would everyone just hold their position whilst I reload? Thanks awfully…”

Our founding fathers did not envision AK-47s, Mac-10s, or 19-shot Berrettas. So, we were given that our rights to keep and bear arms would not be infringed, but also the notion that this was part and parcel of a “well-regulated militia”. Lots of words have been expended on THAT little phrase!
The idea seemingly that citizens should have weapons so that they could be called up to fight for God and Country, at least to the casual reader.

Now, the more radical of our pro-firearms types buy into that “militia” thing very strongly, and will flatly tell you that they need military (contemporary, that is) weapons as a bulwark against tyranny. When the black helicopters land, they’ll be ready. They also point out that being familiar with such weapons makes it easier to ease folks into the military for our legitimate (???) forays into world politics. Of course, most of the theorists who maintain this notion seem to be white males who are a bit past the age where they might expect to be conscripted.

On the home front, there is a fairly large segment of the population who demand the right to defend themselves. They point to rampant crime, and can’t stand the idea that they might be assaulted, attacked, or victimized without the chance to defend themselves. I admit I somewhat sympathize with this idea. On the other hand, it’s pretty obvious that in most areas of the country, the “rampant” crime is rather overblown, conditioned by our “if it bleeds, it leads” journalism. The chances of any particular individual being the victim of a violent crime are very small indeed, dependent of course on location and activity. Running a liquor store in the inner city tends to be rather hazardous.

The downside of having handy weapons for self-defense is that they tend to be used for impulsive activities like homicide and suicide. Domestic homicides far exceed homicides committed in the course of a robbery or other felony. In fact, suicides exceed homicides, as I recall. Some of the inflated figures for homicides pushed around by the “anti” crowd include suicide figures.

On rare occasions, you get the situation where a deranged individual decides to commit mass murder. This is greatly facilitated by having semi-automatic weapons with large magazine capacities, of course. Still, where there’s a will there’s a way…Charles Stuart Whitman committed his rampage with conventional firearms, as I recall. Our department traded in our politically-incorrect 13-round magazines for politically-acceptable 10-round magazines. I can reload in a tad under a second, on a good day….

The pro-gun folks promote laws that punish the illegal use of firearms, rather than ownership. Many states, including my own, have “armed criminal action” statutes that add time to convictions if a weapon is used. Unfortunately, the courts system being what it is, this tends to be used as an incentive to get confessions. “OK, Billy, if you plead to the burglary, we’ll drop the ACA charge.” Not quite the intent of the law.

We’d note that such laws have no effect whatever on the deranged. The guy who’s “going postal”, or the fellow who wants to commit “suicide by cop” are not going to be deterred by the legal consequences of their actions.

Do I have any concrete suggestions? Not really. We live in a society that’s very fond of our weapons, and there are, by most counts, enough for every able man, woman, and child to have their very own. (or several) We are an independent lot, and rather distrustful of authority. We have a homicide rate that’s higher than any other “industrialized” nation. (Still, better than a lot of “undeveloped” places) Confiscation or draconian control would not be popular politically, and we should have by now learned from our mistakes in attempting to control drugs and alcohol.

Maybe a bit of perspective. Our homicide rate is high, but only about half of the death rate from motor vehicle accidents, and a fraction of those caused by tobacco. The vast majority of us will never encounter violent crime, or have to defend ourselves from same.
Even in my line of work, shooting incidents are rare. I have never fired my weapon in anger. Many officers go through entire careers without using the weapon, or perhaps once or twice, and we’re on the Front Lines, as it were.

There, hope I cleared that all up….
 
The problem with many a gun control thread is that they tend to be extremist driven. Everyone should have guns vs. no one should have guns. If your some where in the middle you get hit by both sides.
 
Excellent post, Bikewer.

Unfortunately, people on both sides of the issue demand "action". Since there are pros and cons to both sides, I think we should just keep it as is, and let people own guns, but not the crazy powerful ones, and do background checks and stuff.

But then, I'm able to be neutral since I'm not particularly fond of guns. I've fired one, and it was kind of fun, but too difficult (and loud). Owning one wouldn't make me feel safer, it would just be another responsibility to take care of it, clean it, practice with it, make sure kids didn't get it, and worry that the thing would go off on its own.

I'm happier creeping around with a knife when I hear noises in the night. Burglars might expect, these days, to have a nervous householder call out "Who's there" in a quavering voice, gun in hand, but they probably don't expect a slash to the abdomen coming in from below. But then, I'm very irritable when woken unexpectedly.
 
My personal feelings on the topic are that we should do away with most of our gun control legislation and focus on enforcing what we allow to remain.

It is my belief that the higher than average violent crime rate in the US (with or without a firearm) is not the result of lots of guns, but the result of social issues.

If we remove the gangs from the numbers the violent crime rate in the US is much more in line with other nations. Of course we can't remove those persons from the official statistics, but it does show that gangs and poor minorities are a social factor that isn't present in many places, particularly in many European nations.

We also have a rather poor drug policy which helps greatly in fueling the formation and criminal activity associated with gangs. Few nations used for comparison have such draconian drug control enforcement.

I think in a lot of cases the gun control debate is really a cultural debate. Europeans who are used to not having firearms are likely to see our laws as unnecessarily permissive. I see the same thing in the US with folks who were born and raised in large, densely populated urban areas whereas those who were grown in rural areas are more likely to be against gun control. I think a lot of it simply has to do with how familiar one actually is with firearms.

For myself I am USMC trained in the US of many weapon types (I was a grunt), generally am not in favor of gun control and was happy to see the so called assault weapon ban expire. Having said that I don't own a firearm other than a 22 long rifle which I have used maybe 3 times to shoot targets and for the last few years sits dismantled and lock in my attic.

So, I personally don't desire to have firearms in my home, but I also don't believe they should be banned for private possession and responsible use.

I think our collective interests would be better served looking at the reasons why we have violent crime rather than worying about one of the tools the violent sometimes use.
 
Tmy said:
The problem with many a gun control thread is that they tend to be extremist driven. Everyone should have guns vs. no one should have guns. If your some where in the middle you get hit by both sides.

Either that, or your call for stricter gun control gets interpreted as 'no one should have guns'. When you point out that you advocate no such thing, that point is ignored. Until you rejoin the debate some time later. Rinse. Repeat.
 
Mr Manifesto said:
Either that, or your call for stricter gun control gets interpreted as 'no one should have guns'. When you point out that you advocate no such thing, that point is ignored. Until you rejoin the debate some time later. Rinse. Repeat.

Gun-grabber.
 
Bikewer said:
We were given a marvelous document in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Unfortunately, we were given a second amendment that was, to put it mildly, rather poorly worded, at least as it applies to our times.

You need to understand the purpose and scope of our Constitutional system. One of the central doctrines of the Constitution is that of Enumerated Powers, which, basically, means that if it isn't in the Constitution, the government can't do it. So it doesn't matter what the Second Amendment says; what matters is that nothing in Article I Section 8 (which is a list of 18 things the government is allowed to do) gives the government the power to restrict private ownership of firearms.

To claim that the Second Amendment, if only you can "interpret" it correctly, somehow implies a power of the government is to fall into the trap Alexander Hamilton warned us about in Federalist #84.

Back in the late 1700s, the “arms” our forbears were speaking of were muzzle loading muskets and rifles.

And cannons and other ordinance. They had larger weapons then, some of them more deadly than AK-47s.

On the home front, there is a fairly large segment of the population who demand the right to defend themselves. They point to rampant crime, and can’t stand the idea that they might be assaulted, attacked, or victimized without the chance to defend themselves. I admit I somewhat sympathize with this idea. On the other hand, it’s pretty obvious that in most areas of the country, the “rampant” crime is rather overblown, conditioned by our “if it bleeds, it leads” journalism. The chances of any particular individual being the victim of a violent crime are very small indeed, dependent of course on location and activity. Running a liquor store in the inner city tends to be rather hazardous.

I maintain that most of this crime is a result of the War on Drugs. I'd like to hear your opinion on that, although of course that should be in another thread.

The pro-gun folks promote laws that punish the illegal use of firearms, rather than ownership. Many states, including my own, have “armed criminal action” statutes that add time to convictions if a weapon is used. Unfortunately, the courts system being what it is, this tends to be used as an incentive to get confessions. “OK, Billy, if you plead to the burglary, we’ll drop the ACA charge.” Not quite the intent of the law.

Wait, you're saying that a measure implemented by the government for a specific purpose is actually having the opposite effect? Gee, that's never happened before! :p
 
Although there were heavy weapons in the 1700s, including cannon, rockets, grenades, and so forth, there was nothing like the hand-carried firepower that became widespread in the 20th century.

I am no fan of the "war on drugs", and have been observing it for a long time. Back when I was with the local County police, late 60s-early 70s, we had a chief of narcotics who bought into the "marijuana is destroying the fabric of American society" thing big time. His detectives would reputedly push heroin dealers out of the way to get to a pot-smoker.

The violence associated with drugs not only extends to urban and residential streets, but to the jungles and valleys where the raw materials are grown. Columbia being a good example.

It was only a few years ago that the GAO, a governmental agency, reported that drugs were generally available at low prices and at high states of purity throughout the country, despite the ongoing "war on drugs".
 

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