Guantanamo inmates commit suicide

The POWs at Guantanamo are in a similar situation. By not being a signatory to the Geneva Accords, they are proclaiming, "The rules of war do not apply to us." It is their misfortune that the United States government is taking them at their word.
Then they are NOT POWs, they are plain old criminals. So the US military should not be detaining them, nor should they be instituting military trials.

So put them in US jails, and charge them under international or even internal US civil laws with treason, sedition, felony, robbery, buggery, avoiding customs, or the murder of Rasputin - whatever - but get the heck on with it and quickly.

ETA: Also, them just saying "the rules of war don't apply to us" is no particular reason why the US does not have to either. In Vietnam, the rules of war prevented the US from various acts of engagement which they complied with, even though the enemy didn't follow them. Why do you have to get down in the gutter with them?
 
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You have to question that??
You used the emotive word inhumane. You tell us why you have pity and compassion for our enemies who show none, even for their own? Is inhumane one of your code words for torture perhaps? Happy happy prisoners is what want. Love them and they will love us. ?? Am I close?

And how do you know they are our enemies?
 
Let's just say I found where you lived and pointed you out to the appropriate US authorities and said to them, "Look! He's Al Quaeda! GET HIM!" Would you be likely to object at all if they strung you up to the nearest telephone pole without a by-your-leave?

C'mon. Let's be civilised, hmmm?

I think he was saying that if you catch a pirate ship in the act; hang em then. In the desert without trees, a bullet in the head? That way no need for Gitmo.:D
 
Then they are NOT POWs, they are plain old criminals. So the US military should not be detaining them, nor should they be instituting military trials.

So put them in US jails, and charge them under international or even internal US civil laws with treason, sedition, felony, robbery, buggery, avoiding customs, or the murder of Rasputin - whatever - but get the heck on with it and quickly.

I think the point that some, including me, are trying to make is that we live in a real world, not one of fixed immutable definitions that we have no control over or ability to change.

POW definitions were created to add some basis of commonality between nations armies even while they tried their damndest to kill each other. The US claims it applies most of those principles to terrorist prisoners, even though they are obviously not POWs in the original sense.

You talk of possible innocence of some. It's conceivable, but just as likely as some POW in WWII saying he just put on the uniform of a dead soldier because his clothes were torn, and somebody just asked him to hold the grenades for a while, and could he please go home now?

If any were innocent they will have been among the many already released, but from what I have heard of some of them, I doubt it.

However your biggest mistake, that you do repeat often along with many others, is that they are "plain old" criminals if not POWs. Why is it so impossible for you to accept that times have changed somewhat? Are you too young or too old?

As I've said many times, we have ample proof that our criminal justice system cannot deal with such cases well, to a large extent because it cannot, and should not, have access to all the information that the criminal justice system says should be available to the defense. Additionally, I doubt very much that those who plead for pity and compassion for our enemies (alleged) would believe any US military person testifying to anything that didn't fit their mindset.

If a policeman says he saw the guy shoot, that pretty much guarantees a conviction in civilian court unless the defense can find something very very clearly says that is a lie.

In these cases I suspect you would dismiss any statement by the military witnesses as unreliable and perhaps biased. What's more, I suspect you would give more weight to the thousands who would volunteer to swear on the Koran that so and so had nothing to do with terrorism and just happened to be taking some sheep to market that day; and they beat him for "no reason" (I see that a lot in print) just like they did with AZ, and they saw it all from just a few miles away with their telescopes.

:confused:

Arghh. I'm going to talk about religion for a while. So much harder to understand some stuff over there.
 
Then they are NOT POWs, they are plain old criminals.
Um, you hold up a liquor store, that makes you a criminal.
You shoot at U.S. soldiers on a battlefield, that makes you a POW (or a corpse).
ETA: Also, them just saying "the rules of war don't apply to us" is no particular reason why the US does not have to either.
You're right. It means we can pick and choose whatever standards we deem appropriate, without regard to whether they are covered under the Geneva Accords. That's because the enemy has already told us, "We don't want to be subject to the rules and protections of the Geneva Accords." Just giving them what they want.
 
The miltiary has no issued any statements indicating that the gitmo inmates are being tried under military justice in a timely fashion. I cannot merely assume it is being done in the absence of any indication thereof by the military, or independant verification from other sources.

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/01/gitmo-tribunal-proceedings-resume-amid.php

Or maybe you just haven't looked.

Edited to add: How are the prisoners released if not after a review of a military tribunal?
 
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/01/gitmo-tribunal-proceedings-resume-amid.php

Or maybe you just haven't looked.

Edited to add: How are the prisoners released if not after a review of a military tribunal?
From the aricle off that link

[JURIST] US military commission proceedings against two of a handful of charged prisoners at Guantanamo Bay [JURIST news archive], originally scheduled to restart Tuesday, have been pushed back to Wednesday in recognition of the the Feast of the Sacrifice, a Muslim holy day.
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2006/01/guantanamo-military-commission.php
Wow, a handful, really making progress there with the wheels of justice.
 
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Let's just say I found where you lived and pointed you out to the appropriate US authorities and said to them, "Look! He's Al Quaeda! GET HIM!" Would you be likely to object at all if they strung you up to the nearest telephone pole without a by-your-leave?

C'mon. Let's be civilised, hmmm?

This is absurd. One can imagine all kinds of scenarios where bad and unfair things happen to us, but what does it prove?

Suppose you were accused of a crime you didn't commit and were sentenced to jail? How would you like that!!! Are you now in favor of scrapping our entire criminal justice system merely because we can’t guarantee that no innocent man will ever be falsely convicted?

Of course not.

Then they are NOT POWs, they are plain old criminals.

That's an assertion without evidence, and one I strongly disagree with.
 
But that is not the case. Some are there after being handed in for rewards, for example.


Show us your evidence that this happens.

Do you honestly think the US military doesn't take reasonable precautions -if for no other reason than to conserve valuable prison space for real terrorists- to avoid that?
 
It has been four years since some of them have been put in the place. Only a handful have even been charged with anything. The rest are being held indefinitely without even knowing when they will be charged, and how long they will be held for.

Yes some of them will be guilty of serious crimes. Others are guilty of only a minor offence. Others are guilty of being stupid. Others are innocent. But it takes an independent review to work out which ones are guilty or otherwise. AND IN NO CASE HAS THIS HAPPENED. This includes the three people who hanged themselves. I do not care what type of independent review it is. It needs to happen and it is way overdue.
 
Um, you hold up a liquor store, that makes you a criminal.
You shoot at U.S. soldiers on a battlefield, that makes you a POW (or a corpse).
You know or believe that all of the inmates are guilty of that?

Daredelvis
 
You know or believe that all of the inmates are guilty of that?

Daredelvis

It's funny how people trying to have a rational conversation about important issues are always posed the question of the posssible mistake of whatever kind that supposedly invalidates the entire issue.

I remember once telling a kid, an Arab actually, to stop shooting the birds on my street with slignshots (something I once had done myself until I realized one day how pitiful it was). His answer was that there are people being killed every day, what does it matter? I told him to go away, I didn't have a smart answer. That's how I feel here sometimes.
 
It has been four years since some of them have been put in the place. Only a handful have even been charged with anything. The rest are being held indefinitely without even knowing when they will be charged, and how long they will be held for.

Yes some of them will be guilty of serious crimes. Others are guilty of only a minor offence. Others are guilty of being stupid. Others are innocent. But it takes an independent review to work out which ones are guilty or otherwise. AND IN NO CASE HAS THIS HAPPENED. This includes the three people who hanged themselves. I do not care what type of independent review it is. It needs to happen and it is way overdue.

Rubbish. You pretend to know too much while pretending to know everything. Tell us some of those facts that you have about innocence, for example, and tell us without further bull exactly why you think our people are holding them just for the hell of it.
 
This is absurd. One can imagine all kinds of scenarios where bad and unfair things happen to us, but what does it prove?
Of course it is absurd! So I'm glad to see you are getting the the point. It's quite absurd that people can be accused of crimes, snatched from another country by force, and imprisoned in close confinement another for years or even indefinitely without trial on the unfounded say-so of some unknown accusers, or even just for reward! But this is exactly what has happened with Gitmo, OK?

Suppose you were accused of a crime you didn't commit and were sentenced to jail? How would you like that!!! Are you now in favor of scrapping our entire criminal justice system merely because we can’t guarantee that no innocent man will ever be falsely convicted?

Of course not.
No, quite the opposite. I'm urging you to ensure that that very process you espouse, a fair criminal justice system including a prompt trial, be enacted immediately if not sooner for the Gitmo prisoners. And to be seen to be doing so. Do you not agree this is desirable?
 
You're right. It means we can pick and choose whatever standards we deem appropriate, without regard to whether they are covered under the Geneva Accords. That's because the enemy has already told us, "We don't want to be subject to the rules and protections of the Geneva Accords." Just giving them what they want.
Well, in truth we don't do it because they told us, we do it because it's the only method that make sense, except to.....
 

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