Guantanamo inmates commit suicide

rjh01 said:
The enemy in Northern Ireland were terrorists (just ask the British Government). Just like the people you are trying to fight now. Of course some of these terrorists were captured. They were not sent to Cuba or some other remote place. They were sent to England or left in Ireland. They had a CIVIL trial and then had a prison sentence.
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How long has the Irish/English conflict been going on?
 
Ziggurat said:
OK. So then next question is, are the techniques you object to approved for use on all prisoners? I'm actually not sure of the answer myself, but it seems like that's a question you should be asking but I'm not sure you are.
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It is a question I should be asking, and I would ask it if I had an army intelligence officer in front of me. But I am lazy and bored to death with google, so I would rather just make suppositions.

I find it hard to imagine, however, a scenario where such techniques are only used on people guitly enough to satisfy my standards. After all, we know for a fact that our justice system has put quite a few innocent people on death row or given them very long sentences, and I consider the military justice system in time of war to be much less capable than the civilian one.

Furthermore, after being in the military myself, I know that such things are often done to soldiers by their own peers. So if they will do it to their bunkmates, what is stopping them from doing it to Joe Arab who doesn't speak much english and looks like a terrorist (as all arabs do)? The chain of command? pshhhh...
 
Mycroft said:
Originally Posted by rjh01 :
The enemy in Northern Ireland were terrorists (just ask the British Government). Just like the people you are trying to fight now. Of course some of these terrorists were captured. They were not sent to Cuba or some other remote place. They were sent to England or left in Ireland. They had a CIVIL trial and then had a prison sentence.

How long has the Irish/English conflict been going on? on?
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On and off - around 1,000 years (thats 666 years with time off for good behavior..) if you go back to the Celtic times. The current Oppression/Landlord/serf scenario goes back to the time of Strongbow in August of 1170.

AS for the terrorists and their capture... well, apart from a detour into Diplock Courts and Internement (which it must be said probably did more for PIRA recruitment than anything else could have done) the British government did, indeed, arrest them and convict them and send them to prison.

Pretty much what the US Government has done with domestic terrorists here.

What the British government did with terrorists overseas is not really well known at least by me - the three IRA volunteers in Gibraltar were gunned down.
 
Zep said:
Unfortunately, there are powers greater than you or I who disagree.

Look, if you want to keep them out of the "war" then by all means do so. But do the right thing and make them POWs, then you can stick them in a POW camp in the middle of Nevada or somewhere for as long as you like. Just feed and house them and treat them like proper POWs - not a big ask, surely.

And if there are war criminals among them, there's proper processes for dealing with them too - just go by the book, like they did at Nuremburg. I don't think you will get any objection to that from anyone here.

Is this too hard to understand?
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What is hard to understand is people like you. They went by the book in your friendly neighborhood. Are you going to say that you are happy about the results there and perhaps that the same issues don't apply elsewhere?

Who gives a damn if they are held in Nevada or Cuba?

You no doubt have read more of this than I, but the same issues apply everywhere.

Events in Indonesia this week have emphasised the difficulties that authorities around the world face in coming to grips with the threat of organised terrorism. That neighbour's best known conspirator and open supporter of violence ended a wrist-slap prison sentence and walked out as a free man. Abu Bakar Bashir, a schoolmaster who professes strong religious authority, is the intellect and mentor of Jemaah Islamiyah, the region's most dangerous terrorist organisation. Prosecutors have been unable to prove legally that Bashir is the organiser and head of JI. Bashir denied in court that such a group even existed.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/16Jun2006_news14.php

Frankly I think your type of thinking is pure "useful idiot". Get some spine and defend yourself, and show some modicum of trust in your own, not to mention your friends.


 
WildCat said:
And how can you possibly claim that they are legit POW's? I'm assuming that you mean POW's qualifying for the protections of the GC by "legit POWs".
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When are you people going to READ WHAT I WROTE, NOT WHAT I DIDN'T WRITE?? You seem to have my story all set out beforehand before I write anything, and nothing I say seems to get you off that rail... That is, you aren't taking the slightest bit of notice, just looking to reinforce your own prejudices. You could make good radical Muslims at this rate...

I'm not claiming anything about these people in Gitmo, YOU ARE! You are claiming they are "illegal combatants", a classification that does not seem to have ever existed before. It seems to be designed specifically to avoid any ethical and legal responsibilities in detaining people without charge and without trial indefinitely. Do you, or do you not, have any argument that shows otherwise?

Look, let's accept that the US is waging a "War Against Terror" in Iraq and Afghanistan. These people were taken prisoner by YOUR military in THIS war - they captured them and put them in custody. That makes them YOUR prisoners of war - POWs. Do you, or do you not, have any argument that shows otherwise?

Now if they have done something illegal, they are criminals. Particularly, they are war criminals if they break the rules of conduct of war. The USA has properly prosecuted many war criminals in the past, and hanged them too. Do you, or do you not, have any argument that shows otherwise?
 
The Painter said:
If all the inmates a Gitmo would kill themselves, it would solve everything. I’m just saying.
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If you, and people who thought like you, would kill yourselves, that might also solve everything too.

Just saying...
 
Elind said:
What is hard to understand is people like you. They went by the book in your friendly neighborhood. Are you going to say that you are happy about the results there and perhaps that the same issues don't apply elsewhere?

Who gives a damn if they are held in Nevada or Cuba?

You no doubt have read more of this than I, but the same issues apply everywhere.

Events in Indonesia this week have emphasised the difficulties that authorities around the world face in coming to grips with the threat of organised terrorism. That neighbour's best known conspirator and open supporter of violence ended a wrist-slap prison sentence and walked out as a free man. Abu Bakar Bashir, a schoolmaster who professes strong religious authority, is the intellect and mentor of Jemaah Islamiyah, the region's most dangerous terrorist organisation. Prosecutors have been unable to prove legally that Bashir is the organiser and head of JI. Bashir denied in court that such a group even existed.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/16Jun2006_news14.php

Frankly I think your type of thinking is pure "useful idiot". Get some spine and defend yourself, and show some modicum of trust in your own, not to mention your friends.
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Geez...get a brain, and use it.

21 million of us versus 120 million of them, for a start. We are NOT the USA, we are a small country, inadequately armed and defended. What can we threaten them with? We haven't even got a Britney Speers song to annoy them with.

It's all very well saying "grow some balls" but there's a vast difference between your redneck posturing there and the realpolitik of south-east Asia right here. Did Vietnam not teach you anything?

Yes, I'm thoroughly disgusted by Bashir's release and the reasons behind it. But no, I won't be advocating stuff command raids to capture or kill him now. Wish I could, but it would do more harm than good.

And you could do much better if you didn't put anything not involving riding in like John Wayne under the heading of "useful idiot" and dismissing it as ball-less fear.
 
"Acceptable" containment conditions are comfortable, climate-controlled private rooms, decent meals, plenty of available exercise, reading material, and peace and quiet.
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I don't get all of that when I go on on a friggin' vacation, let alone in daily life. I suppose the only reason you didn't add "Free Drinks!" to this list of bare necessities is that most of the detainees are Muslims and therefore are forbidden to drink alcohol.
 
Zep said:
Geez...get a brain, and use it.

21 million of us versus 120 million of them, for a start. We are NOT the USA, we are a small country, inadequately armed and defended. What can we threaten them with? We haven't even got a Britney Speers song to annoy them with.

It's all very well saying "grow some balls" but there's a vast difference between your redneck posturing there and the realpolitik of south-east Asia right here. Did Vietnam not teach you anything?

Yes, I'm thoroughly disgusted by Bashir's release and the reasons behind it. But no, I won't be advocating stuff command raids to capture or kill him now. Wish I could, but it would do more harm than good.

And you could do much better if you didn't put anything not involving riding in like John Wayne under the heading of "useful idiot" and dismissing it as ball-less fear.
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I never said anything about capture and kill, or war with Indonesia. I was referencing what happens when you try to try people like this in normal criminal courts, which is what you and the other "usefuls" are always harping about. I am imagining that the Indonesians actually wanted to imprison him, but all they could get him on was some minor technical issues. You know, witnesses and all that, and lying Americans who imprison for "no reason".

Most of the Gitmo crowd would probably be unlucky if they were sentenced just for illegal possesion of an RPG by criminal courts. Time already served. But you would have them released on your fine principles.
 
Skeptic said:
I don't get all of that when I go on on a friggin' vacation, let alone in daily life. I suppose the only reason you didn't add "Free Drinks!" to this list of bare necessities is that most of the detainees are Muslims and therefore are forbidden to drink alcohol.
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cool, I'll denounce you to the CIA and you can have about four years of it...and you would support your own arrest and detention wouldn't you....wouldn't you?
 
The Fool said:
cool, I'll denounce you to the CIA and you can have about four years of it...and you would support your own arrest and detention wouldn't you....wouldn't you?
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Let's give that a test and see if it works.
 
The Fool said:
list some things that would stop it....
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1) The CIA would consider you a nutter and not pay attention to you.

2) In real life, some form of corroborating evidence is required before someone winds up in Gitmo.

3) In real life, the CIA doesn’t have nearly the same awesome powers and resources as it does in the paranoid delusions of nutters.

4) I’m skeptical of your ability to locate an actual phone number to reach the CIA, and talking into your houseplants and appliances may not have the effect you think.

And, if somehow I were wrong about 1-4…

5) The library at Gitmo doesn’t contain much that Skeptic hasn’t already read, and what it does have, he wouldn’t want to read. He wouldn’t consider it much of a vacation at all.
 
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