Going Ape Feces

In this discussion, it might be worth reflection on mandrills, which are baboon-like but live in much larger groups than baboons or chimps. The "hordes" are up into multiple hundreds of individuals. There was a brief article in IIRC "Nature" this month, but I did not find it online. Below is a different source, but same info.

http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/entry/drill/behav

The article I just read in the last few weeks was by a field researcher who said that so far the 'smaller groups joining up' theory is not supported by actual observation; it seems to be a mostly female/juvenile group that doesn't have overall leaders.

Just found it an interesting contrast to the assertion that brain size limits group size, MK
 
Mandrills may be different in that aspect, so maybe docility does make a difference. But humans still fit on the same curve as chimps, so maybe we're not more docile after all.
 
Miss_Kitt said:
In this discussion, it might be worth reflection on mandrills, which are baboon-like but live in much larger groups than baboons or chimps. The "hordes" are up into multiple hundreds of individuals. There was a brief article in IIRC "Nature" this month, but I did not find it online. Below is a different source, but same info.

http://pin.primate.wisc.edu/factsheets/entry/drill/behav

The article I just read in the last few weeks was by a field researcher who said that so far the 'smaller groups joining up' theory is not supported by actual observation; it seems to be a mostly female/juvenile group that doesn't have overall leaders.

Just found it an interesting contrast to the assertion that brain size limits group size, MK
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Well, there are different kinds of groups. Birds and fish gather in enormous groups, but that has little to do with brain size.
 
HansMustermann said:
Mandrills may be different in that aspect, so maybe docility does make a difference. But humans still fit on the same curve as chimps, so maybe we're not more docile after all.
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It could be that there are competing factors to docility that make it irrelevant to group size. If a human from one group meets a human from another group, he might be less likely than a chimp to rip the stranger's face off, but the stranger may be less likely to cause trouble as well.

This would prevent social groups from forming by linking up with others, but it doesn't explain why the group size is limited internally. I don't know enough about the social behavior of either chimps or primitive humans to really comment knowlegeably about it, but it seems to me there are a lot of different factors that could come into play to limit group size (for instance, availability of food).
 
I had the same feelings after watching a show about a group of dolphins torturing & killing baby dolphins for absolutely no apparent reason. Looked like they were having fun. Jerks.

Captivity can have a striking impact on animal behavior. As Craig Stanford, a primatologist at the University of Southern California, recently put it, “Stuck together, bored out of their minds—what is there to do except eat and have sex?”
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Interesting value judgment in that quote. Sounds like the bonobos in the wild were also pretty bored. And are they any less stuck together in the wild? You could also say, "living the easy life with all your needs met, you get to eat & have sex all you want."
 
iknownothing said:
I had the same feelings after watching a show about a group of dolphins torturing & killing baby dolphins for absolutely no apparent reason. Looked like they were having fun. Jerks.
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The more I learn about things like this, the more I get annoyed at people who claim that Nature is totally benevolent and pristine, and humans are ruining it with all their badness and meanness and body odor. These people should spend a weekend camping in the rain forest, then we'll see how they feel about Mother Nature.
 
aggle-rithm said:
The more I learn about things like this, the more I get annoyed at people who claim that Nature is totally benevolent and pristine, and humans are ruining it with all their badness and meanness and body odor. These people should spend a weekend camping in the rain forest, then we'll see how they feel about Mother Nature.
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What? Haven't you seen those, uh, lambs... or baby birds frolicking with the lions in the jungle? I've seen pictures... er paintings myself!
 
William Parcher said:
Capture and torture is not uncommon in human tribal warfare. But putting that aside, chimps are not physically equipped to easily kill each other. Unlike us, they have no weapons (tools) for this purpose. They use their teeth and they are almost always not alone. All they can really do to kill each other is bite. If the victim is of similar size and strength (very strong) then the best way to subdue them might be to strategically bite in places that cause great pain (bringing shock) or reduce the ability to defend (bite off fingers). Death is probably going to come from blood loss as they are not known to strangle. How else could they kill?
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Chimps have been known to use club like weapons, unfortunately the club was usually a baby chimp held by the feet. I remember watching some footage in a doco a while ago, he gave the other chimp quite a wallop with it. Probably not to much damage to the adult, but I would not of wanted to be the Baby chimp
 
akama1 said:
Chimps have been known to use club like weapons, unfortunately the club was usually a baby chimp held by the feet. I remember watching some footage in a doco a while ago, he gave the other chimp quite a wallop with it. Probably not to much damage to the adult, but I would not of wanted to be the Baby chimp
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A-ha! So THAT's where the urge to swing kids around in circles comes from!
 
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