God versus Evolution

Iacchus said:
And yet that would also coincide with the fact that He exists now wouldn't it?
I think you mean a "belief", not a fact. Facts have evidence.

Iacchus said:
Like I said, if our stay here is only temporary, and there are no repercussions afterwards, who cares?
This is what scares me about spiritual people. It is obvious that the only thing restraining them from being homocidal maniacs is their fear of repurcussions. Atheists, on the other hand, behave morally because of empathy for their fellow human beings. Which one of these would you trust more?
 
Originally posted by Iacchus
And yet that would also coincide with the fact that He exists now wouldn't it?
Why would it? He exists, therefore even non-believers have morals?

Here's the alternative:
He doesn't exist, and that is why a lot of religious people are able to comit atrocities in his name.

Like I said, if our stay here is only temporary, and there are no repercussions afterwards, who cares?
I care. And so do a lot of others.

Do you mean to say that you are such a heartless, selfish b*st*rd that you have no intention of leaving the place behind for your kids the way you originally found it yourself? Do you want them to suffer from pollution, disease and famine just because you have the power to do that?
 
Tricky said:

Well, I won't deny there are selfish idiots in every camp, including evolutionists. I don't think many of them are here on these boards.
I don't know?


Because evolution selects for creatures that protect their kind. It should be very obvious that things which protect their kind will continue, so yes, caring is hardwired into us by evolution.
But not all species do this though. A lot of them would just assume kill their young and not give it a second glance. And of course if animals had "morals" in the first place, maybe they wouldn't prey upon other animals in the second place? So you obviously can't say this.


And the fact of the matter is that the world has a whole lot more spiritual people than non-spiritual people. I think they deserve the lion's share of the blame for what we are doing to our earth.
Yes, but how would they be allowed to further any of this without materialistic means?
 
Tricky said:

I think you mean a "belief", not a fact. Facts have evidence.
Basically what I was suggesting was how could I possibily say such a thing if He didn't exist ... in that Atheists couldn't have morals without God. Make any more sense? Nevermind ...


This is what scares me about spiritual people. It is obvious that the only thing restraining them from being homocidal maniacs is their fear of repurcussions. Atheists, on the other hand, behave morally because of empathy for their fellow human beings. Which one of these would you trust more?
On the contrary, I think Atheists are just as much afraid of the repurcussions as anyone else, for instance like going to jail? ;)

Or, perhaps you're making the assumption that all Atheits think like you?
 
Iacchus said:
And yet that would also coincide with the fact that He exists now wouldn't it?

Or Bubba the Big Blue Sperm Whale of Reality exists.


Iacchus said:
Like I said, if our stay here is only temporary, and there are no repercussions afterwards, who cares?

I believe I have already answered this.
 
Chanileslie said:

No it doesn't. Evolution is a process and nothing more. Anything else you put into it is your own bias. Actually from my veiw point, understanding evolution allows us to understand how the world works and gives us better tools to learn to not step on the toes of other species and the environment.
Yes, as a process evolution addresses the natural world, nothing more.


I think your argument is interesting since the whole concept of a soul is something that was invented just so humans could consider themselves better than the rest of the world, and has been used many times since its inception as a reason to abuse and take advantage of animals and plant life. The whole idea, "God made this all for us...." Blah!
We either have a soul or we don't. And if we do, how do you think it got there?
 
From Iaachus's opening post:
Only because it's contingent upon the fall of man. And yet why can't it be as the Bible says, where God essentially culls man out of the (spiritual) garden and transplants him to the natural world of evolutionary change?
The information written in the bible is inconsistent with our fossil record. From what you suggest, this would be as if man just popped onto the planet.

However, we know this is not the case, there are quite a long line human-like animals which came before humans. They form a smooth gradient between non-human to neo-human to human to modern human animal.

Indeed, there's evidence to suggest this, beginning with the advent of modern man and the development of agriculture -- hmm ... why agriculture? -- in Asia Minor about 10,000 years ago.
Good, this is an excellent example of evolution. This is not the type of evolution which occurs on the genetic level, instead it is the type of evolution which occurs at the social level (Note: Social Darwinism and Evolution are entirely unrelated). One social activity is highly beneficial, this ensures that animals who practice this activity will have a tendency to live healthier lives than those who do not practice this activity.

Being a social evolutionary advantage, there is no need to reproduce for this activity to spread. Other groups of caught on to this idea.

And this is not an unheard of phenomena in the animal kingdom. This is simply "learn as your grow". Do you think monkeys know that they should take a stick (a tool), shove it into an ant burrow to gather ants at birth? Of course not, this is a learned behavior. Most likely , this behavior was an accident from which one monkey discovered, and other monkeys copied.

Another example: Otters like to eat shellfish. One of the things they do is use a rock to smash open the shellfish with. Of course, this is also a learned behavior, all those adorably cute little baby otters struggle to crack the shell with their teeth. (Birds have been known to kill prey by throwing small rocks at them.)

By the way, the domestication of animals and the wonderful new creation called agriculture arrived long after the advent of anatomically modern humans.

The thing that is so special about agriculture is that it changed humans dietary habits. That surplus of food is what gave rise to civilization. Agriculture is just another advancement of the human species, it is fully consistant with evolution, it is rather unrelated to your suggestion.

Whereas if you look back and ask what is it about man that would demonstrate 10,000 years of evolutionary change, relative to an original pair (Adam and Eve), basically all we have is the difference in the races which, would be about right. Otherwise we're all pretty much alike.
Yes, we are all pretty much alike. My DNA is virtually (but not 100%) identical to your DNA.

However, it was not always like this. One theory, which is not entirely substantiated, of evolutionary history (note: History, not mechanism) says there was a very wide spectrum of genetic difference between humans across the globe. However, there was a genetic bottleneck which occurred ~71,000 years ago. This is what the bottleneck did:
Code:
1 - Some species of human
2 - Another species of human
3 - The humans you are familiar with today
4 - Yet another species of human
5 - Still yet another species of human

* represents an extinction

1    2    3    4    5
|    |    |    |    |
|    |    |    |    |
|    |    |    |    |
|    |    |    |    |
*    |    |    *    |   }
     |    |         *   } 70,000 to 74,000 years ago
     *    |             } 
          |              
          |
          |
         \./            } 0 years ago (Today)

The modern humans of today survived a global catastrophy. I would guess the reason why we survived is "luck".

We would also have to ask ourselves where are all the missing links between us and the apes? For there's still quite a vast difference between us and a chimp (our closest relative), so you'd think there'd be at least be a few sub-species between us, which there isn't.
Apparently you've never done your outside reading.

There are dozens of intermediate species.

From Human Species Timeline:

timeline.jpg


From this image you can see that Homo Habilis is our ancestor, whereas Australopithicus robustus is not.

Australopithicus africanus is an ancestor of both though.

Then neanderthals branched off of 'homo sapiens', but are not our ancestors...only the homo sapiens are our ancestors.

The neanderthals survived the ice age well with their small size and hardiness, but when the homo sapiens started to take over Europe after it warmed up, the neanderthals die off.

...

A. afarensis is classified as an ape, not a human. It is a Hominid--that is, an ape closely related to human beings. In terms of overall body size, brain size and skull shape, "Lucy" resembles a chimpanzee. However, A. afarensis has some surprisingly human characteristics. For example, the way the hip joint and pelvis articulate indicates that "Lucy" walked upright like a human, not like a chimp (far left). This means that upright posture and bi-pedalism preceded the development of what we would recognize as human beings and human intelligence. At near left is a reconstruction of Lucy's full skeleton.

Until 1994, A. afarensis was the earliest Hominid species yet discovered.

That is a very short introduction to the evolution of humans, but its good enough to get you started.


(There are about 4 or 5 "evidences against evolution" that you should never use. This includes "2nd Law of Thermodynamics disproves evolution", "If humans came from monkeys, why are their still monkeys", "some systems are irreducibly complex", "the dust on the moon is too thin", and "there are no transitional fossils". You used the "no transitional fossils" argument, I can only assume you've never done any outside reading.)

Indeed, why is it that the chimps can live in perfect harmony with nature and we can't? ... almost as if we were some kind of evolutionary freak? Just look around at all the devastation we've wrought on the world as a result. Could it be because we weren't meant to be here?
See my reply here.
 
Iacchus said:
I don't know?
You've made a big step, itchy. Now, apply it to your arguments.
But not all species do this though. A lot of them would just assume kill their young and not give it a second glance. And of course if animals had "morals" in the first place, maybe they wouldn't prey upon other animals in the second place? So you obviously can't say this.
Um... Animals kill either to eat or to avoid being eaten. There are a few trippy cases, but those species can procreate enough to survive it.
Yes, but how would they be allowed to further any of this without materialistic means?
Huh?

Are you telling me that materialism is still at fault if spiritualists start thinking a little like them.

How about proof, or at least evidence. Put up or shut up.
 
Iacchus said:
Basically what I was suggesting was how could I possibily say such a thing if He didn't exist ... in that Atheists couldn't have morals without God. Make any more sense? Nevermind ...


On the contrary, I think Atheists are just as much afraid of the repurcussions as anyone else, for instance like going to jail? ;)

Or, perhaps you're making the assumption that all Atheits think like you?
Read up on social contract theory before continuing the BS-go-round, would ya?
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, as a process evolution addresses the natural world, nothing more.

The natural world is all we got.


Iacchus said:
We either have a soul or we don't. And if we do, how do you think it got there?

We don't have a soul.
 
Iacchus said:
But not all species do this though. A lot of them would just assume kill their young and not give it a second glance. And of course if animals had "morals" in the first place, maybe they wouldn't prey upon other animals in the second place? So you obviously can't say this.

I thought we were talking about humans here? Are you sure you want to debate the morality of wombats?

Our morals have evolved (if I may use that word ;)) from the pressure to succeed as a species, i.e., to preserve our genes. Since humans normally have few children relative to other species, survival depends on keeping those children alive. It would be bad for our species to engage in wholesale slaughter of each other.

But nature has many survival strategies. Some animals have many thousands of offspring, but engage in mass infantacide. A few (the strongest) will survive.

One thing that humans have that few if any other species have, is the ability to think far into the future. It is this ability that allows us to plan for hard times. But this ability is still underused. Many humans still engage in short-sighted behavior that, if examined, will ultimately harm the species. Polluting our habitat is one such behavior. Hopefully we will learn better as we discover more about how we interact with our environment.
Iacchus said:

Yes, but how would they be allowed to further any of this without materialistic means?
LOL. How would you eat without materialistic means? That "soul food" is notoriously short on nutrition. If we wish to live at all we must interact with the material world. I'm betting you do it too. I'm even betting you own some nice things (like a computer). Does that make you one of those filthy materialists?
Iacchus said:
Basically what I was suggesting was how could I possibily say such a thing if He didn't exist ... in that Atheists couldn't have morals without God. Make any more sense?
Nope. I think your cognitive dissonance is kicking in.
Iacchus said:
On the contrary, I think Atheists are just as much afraid of the repurcussions as anyone else, for instance like going to jail?
I admit that laws are necessary to try to prevent humans from damaging each other. However, polls have shown that there are far fewer atheists in prison than "spiritual" people, even adjusted for relative percentage in the community. If you are trying to prove that materialists/atheists are by nature more immoral than spiritual people, you have not come close to doing so.

Iacchus said:
Or, perhaps you're making the assumption that all atheists think like you?
Of course not. I have said, more than once, that each camp has some right bastards in it. What I contest is your suggestion that atheists/materialists have a disproportionately high number of them.
Iacchus said:
Yes, as a process evolution addresses the natural world, nothing more.
Nor does it attempt to address more. Evolution is science. Things that address the supernatural world are generally termed, "religions".

Yet even though evolution "addresses the natural world, nothing more," it has provided many more useful things for mankind in the short time it has been discovered than spirituality has done in the many thousands of years that it has existed.
Iacchus said:
We either have a soul or we don't. And if we do, how do you think it got there?
Another incorrect statement.
If soul means "consciousness," then I agree (mostly).
If soul means "something that survives after death," then I disagree.
There are many definitions of "soul". What is yours?

But if we have one, it got there through evolution, just like everything else.
 
Marc said:
Interesting the attempt to link humans recieving souls from god and the advent of agriculture. Does this mean leafcutter ants have souls?
christians believe that man was created in God's image, molded after him, and that man was created above all of the other animals and to have dominion over them
 
Riddick said:

christians believe that man was created in God's image, molded after him, and that man was created above all of the other animals and to have dominion over them
Some Christians believe that, but by no means all. Many modern Christians regard the Old Testament as a book of parables.
 
Chanileslie said:

It is possible since neither exists outside of imagination. :p
So what is the imagination then? Basically what exists inside of your brain? If not, then how do you know your brain's not deceiving you? If so, then how do you know that anything is real? In other words, how do you know that everything is not just a by-product of your imagination?
 
DarkMagician said:

Read up on social contract theory before continuing the BS-go-round, would ya?
And yet why are our prisons so brim full of inmates? Are you saying these are only religious people which have been incarcerated?
 
Tricky said:

I think you mean a "belief", not a fact. Facts have evidence.
There's evidence that I'm sitting in my chair right now, except you couldn't prove it. :D

But it sure as hell is a plausible idea now don't you think?


This is what scares me about spiritual people. It is obvious that the only thing restraining them from being homocidal maniacs is their fear of repurcussions. Atheists, on the other hand, behave morally because of empathy for their fellow human beings. Which one of these would you trust more?
You really should be careful about the labels that you put on people. Their spirits might actually come back to haunt you. :D

But who's going to believe you when you say you saw a ghost? Too bad!
 
DarkMagician said:

Huh?

Are you telling me that materialism is still at fault if spiritualists start thinking a little like them.
Okay, define spiritual, because I'm sure your idea of spiritualism is not the same as mine. Are you referring to those people who call themselves Christians and go to church on Sundays? ... Who, tend only to exhibit what is spiritual in the "outward sense?"


How about proof, or at least evidence. Put up or shut up.
And like it or not we're all stuck on this planet and have to deal with the ramifications of materialism.
 
Iacchus said:
There's evidence that I'm sitting in my chair right now, except you couldn't prove it. :D

But it sure as hell is a plausible idea now don't you think?
But it is potentially provable. If you provided me evidence, (like a picture, some ID etc.) I would probably believe you. Also, I have lots of empirical evidence that most people sit in chairs when they work at their computer.

Showing me God's ID is going to be a bit harder. And I have no empiracle evidence of one.

Iacchus said:
You really should be careful about the labels that you put on people. Their spirits might actually come back to haunt you. :D
Yes. I shall dedicate one nanosecond of my life to worrying about vengeful spirits. It's not worth any more. ;)

But as for labels, the "spiritual people are only constrained homocidal maniacs" comment was a bit of hyperbole in response to the suggestion that non-spiritual people would be immoral because they have no "retribution" to worry about. Both are ludicrous propositions.

Iacchus said:
But who's going to believe you when you say you saw a ghost?
Only every woo-woo in the world. :p
 

Back
Top Bottom