God On The Brain

What in the flying F*CK?

Hell, all this has been gone over so many times it makes me sick.

And I'm tired of presenting the same ignored rebuttals to UcE again and again, so I will simply ask the audience one question -- anyone wishing to investigate further may feel more than welcome to start a thread where I will be willing to discuss all with them.

My simple question is this:

If UcE is trying to present himself as a staunch skeptic and unbeliever who suddenly had his entire universal paradigm shifted by some "major breaches of the laws of physics," then why is it that any of us must give up our own non-believer status before we can experience the same enlightenment?

Can you imagine being a lifelong skeptic, then finding that the paranormal was real and then finding yourself getting into it way over your head because at the outset you didn't really believe it was real, and didn't understand what you were getting involved in?

-Chris
 
Hello Dub

Dub said:
But you still wont say what actually happened? Also, how do you know they were broken?

You would have known if you were there. The accounts given by some others weren't entirely innacurate, even if they were a bit dramatised. Forgive me for being careful about what I post.


How do you define paranormal? If there is a probability that something can happen, no matter how small that probablity is, its occurence would not be paranormal, just highly unlinkey. Are you saying that you define unlikely events as paranormal? Is winning the lottery paranormal?


If a man walks out onto a lake and each time he puts his foot down quantum randomness and co-ordinated brownian motion throw molecules up towards his feet so he does not sink into the water, is it a miracle? He can do this without breaking the laws of physics - all that is required is an incredibly co-ordinated co-incidence. Is it paranormal? The word doesn't matter. If you saw this, then you would know something strange was going on.
 
Re: Re: Re: undercover elephant's conversion

asherah said:
So I hope you will allow a public discussion on your views again with the additional hope that they can be soberly discussed without degenerating into insult matches. Also do not presume that I will think you are a fool or a liar ... at worst I might consider you mis-led and who among us hasn't been mis-led at one time or another, either by ourselves or others.

Great. Welcome to the board. :)
 
asherah said:
As to your position formerly as an atheist, did you not feel as strongly about the absolute truth of the non existance of the paranormal as you do now about the absolute truth of the paranormal based on your experiences.

I felt they were theoretically impossible.

Another question; is there anything that could happen, any future occurance that might call into question in your mind the validity or connection of these experiences to the paranormal.

No. If you had aliens to tea, then you wouldn't later doubt it.

For example aren't Eddington's idea's about quantum mechanics and probability open for revision?

All sorts of things are open for revision.

And to would you recommend a book such as How to Think about Wierd Things to those not as educated as yourself as an introduction, say, to reason and logical fallacies and as a tool for the evaluation of unsubstantiated claims?

This sentence doesn't scan and I'm not sure what it is meant to say.

(with of course the respectful exclusion of your own0? Certainly a general paradigm for dealing with reality is not without merit in most situations, correct?

Thanking you in advance for you consideration in reading an answering what may seem to you peurile and useless questions.[

Yes, we need a general paradigm of reaity. But we must be prepared every now and then to go back to the drawing board and examine that paradigm very carefully indeed.

Skepticism can go hand in hand with subjective explorations of the nature of reality, even if these cannot be scientifically pinned down.
 
c4ts said:
You think he would have learned something after all that studying, yet he continues to cling dogmatically, rather than reasonably, to his dualistic philosophy.

I am a mental monist, not a dualist.

Thus he fails to understand materialism because he cannot understand what he cannot incorporate into his systematic beliefs.

The reverse is true. Ultimately I could not incorporate consciousness into the systematic belief system I held based upon materialism.

UCE claims knowledge of our particular belief system because he has studied a similar system belonging to people other than ourselves which is "hard" athiesm.

I claim knowledge of your belief system because I was just like you for 20 years, c4ts.
 
Perhaps I can move this debate on in a different way. Here is a quote from a website which covers this sort of subject :

Truth Analysis

Montalk 3/3/03

This article describes the reasoning process I use to write most of the articles on this site.

This process is based on two axioms: truth is not relative, and truth never contradicts itself. Because truth is not relative, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.

The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what's true and what's false. Here's what I mean:

It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you've put together.

Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.

It is better to look for what's wrong with a theory than what's right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.

Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.

Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition -- logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.

The process goes like this:

1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.

2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.

3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.

4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:

- explains all the facts
- explains the facts better than any other theory
- explains facts that previous theories could not
- is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions
- makes sense
- feels intuitively correct

4) The theory is worth keeping if:

- it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation
- you find correlation from other independent sources

5) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:

- check to see that it's really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective
- check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes
- modify the theory to accomodate the challenge
- come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one

This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It's an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it's incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.

The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn't fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it's the best method of achieving rapid innovation.
 
UndercoverElephant said:
Perhaps I can move this debate on in a different way. Here is a quote from a website which covers this sort of subject :



Am comfused, does this quote represent how you analize reality now or before your strange experience that defied the known laws of physics?

Also, as regards my previous confusing and admittedly convoluted sentence, let me rephrase: If you do not have any respect for the paradigm presented in a book such as How to Think About Wierd Things, could you recommend a few texts yourself that cover what you consider an appropriate paradigm for dealing with everyday non miracle laced reality? And, more important, any texts or sites that might illuminate us as to examples of or methods for dealing with our own possible future experiences with breaks in the laws of physics. Thanks :)
 
asherah said:
Am comfused, does this quote represent how you analize reality now or before your strange experience that defied the known laws of physics?

The process of my views evolving from exclusive scientism to a more holistic way of thinking kind of happened as a long process. My understanding of the way things fitted together and the level of 'strangeness' of the experiences changed together.


Also, as regards my previous confusing and admittedly convoluted sentence, let me rephrase: If you do not have any respect for the paradigm presented in a book such as How to Think About Wierd Things, could you recommend a few texts yourself that cover what you consider an appropriate paradigm for dealing with everyday non miracle laced reality?

I should think that this is probably a good book for describing every day non-miracle-laced reality.

And, more important, any texts or sites that might illuminate us as to examples of or methods for dealing with our own possible future experiences with breaks in the laws of physics.


I have stated about four times in this thread that I have spoken about breaks in the normal laws of probability and a potentially non-fixed past. I have specifically stated I am agnostic as regards whether the known laws of physics can be broken.

And I don't think it is likely to happen to you unless you go looking for it.

:)
 
UndercoverElephant said:


The process of my views evolving from exclusive scientism to a more holistic way of thinking kind of happened as a long process. My understanding of the way things fitted together and the level of 'strangeness' of the experiences changed together.




I should think that this is probably a good book for describing every day non-miracle-laced reality.




I have stated about four times in this thread that I have spoken about breaks in the normal laws of probability and a potentially non-fixed past. I have specifically stated I am agnostic as regards whether the known laws of physics can be broken.

And I don't think it is likely to happen to you unless you go looking for it.

:)

Uce, did your experience change you in any way physically? If so, can you share that with us?

If not, can you give us any examples of accounts of experiences of the strange that you have heard that are similar to yours. Thanks as always.
 
Q-Source said:
Today is the day of the show

Comments tomorrow... :)

Yea, comments tomorrow. :) Mabe I'll have changed my mind about all my beliefs! :)
 
UndercoverElephant said:
I do. But my point remains. The only person who can judge the true status of a mystical experience is a mystic, and that judgement can only ever be subjective. And that is the way it must be, forever.

A person having a mystical experience would by definiton be a mystic--unless you are a Materialist having the mystical experience. In the case of the Materialist, you would simply be someone needing more medication.

Love,
Socrates
 
Re: Re: Re: God On The Brain

synaesthesia said:
If that's what you mean than Dawkin's inability to have a "bona fide, UE approved" mystical experience is due simply to his lack of delusion.

Is that the only reason? Perhaps lack of intellectual honesty could lead him to reject the experience as mystical.

Love,
Socrates
 
UndercoverElephant said:
"Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw
your pearls before swine." (Matt. 7:6)

The Bible tends to put people off. You might try Pythagoras who once wrote, "Don't place a candle against the wall." Trying to enlighten something/someone incapable of receiving it will lead to disastrous consequences.

Love,
Socrates
 
So Richard Dawkins failed to have any religious experience! It seems that some atheists are incurable! :eek:
 

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