Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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I have to consider this. I'm hanging on "traps heat". I wonder what happens to thermometers wrapped in insulation that is painted in various colors and shades of grey, floating in space in orbit around the sun. Don't they all reach the same temperature if they're all composed of the same material (mercury or alcohol in calibrated glass tubes) and orbit at the same distance?

What does this "dance of the thermometers" mean? You're still in calorimetric mode and trying to make sense of albedo. You need a crash course of basic physics, chapter about heat. Urgently. And another course on not drawing conclusions from what you really don't know. And another one in good manners.
 
George Orwell, "Politics and the English Language".
We got it! You know a couple of things for copy-pasting. What you fail all the time to do is connecting the dots between A and B as your post says nothing neither about the on-topic nor related to the message you quoted, as it looks just like an aged kid proposing: "why don't we join forces against him".
 
Why don't you apply that standard to those who cite Skeptical Science?
Because, like wikipedia it is an excellent secondary source that links to the original scientific papers. Even when linking to 'skeptic' sites and using quotes they are careful to provide links so that folks can see the comments in context, a habit sadly lacking in many 'skeptic' sites. When other sites start following the same principles, then they may get the same response.
 
I have to consider this. I'm hanging on "traps heat". I wonder what happens to thermometers wrapped in insulation that is painted in various colors and shades of grey, floating in space in orbit around the sun. Don't they all reach the same temperature if they're all composed of the same material (mercury or alcohol in calibrated glass tubes) and orbit at the same distance?

So you disbelieve the whole greenhouse effect?

Venus is hotter than Mercury.

Edit: The surface of Venus is hotter than Mercury's surface
 
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I have to consider this. I'm hanging on "traps heat". I wonder what happens to thermometers wrapped in insulation that is painted in various colors and shades of grey, floating in space in orbit around the sun. Don't they all reach the same temperature if they're all composed of the same material (mercury or alcohol in calibrated glass tubes) and orbit at the same distance?
Why do you base these thought experiments in such abtuse and inapproapriate terms, they make no sense because they don't apply to reality.

Why not think of one that has a dense sphere that orbits the sun at the Earths orbit with a layer of gas around it that allows visible light to impinge on the sphere but delays and diffuses IR radiation propagation in both directions. Apply light following the suns spectra and see what happens...
 
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Try it and see. The earth is floating in space in orbit around the sun, so you can set up the experiment in your back yard.
No. I assume a uniform blanket of insulation with the thermometer in the center. There are no convective currents of fluid and no direct penetration by solar radiation of the glass in the thermometer. A thermometer in the back yard would experience both a day/night cycle of solar radiation and convective heat transport by air.
 
Hey, Malcolm! Don't you have something to say about this?

...

The same page in the blog links to some document in nsidc. The innumerate basis of negationism is always there, as the blog's author seem to have overlooked an opportunity to criticize "how science is made". Look at this snapshot searching for mistakes (two different kind of mistakes in a total of 8 occasions)



Government agencies must be more careful about what they publish.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=907&pictureid=6638
 
Try it and see. The earth is floating in space in orbit around the sun, so you can set up the experiment in your back yard.
No. I assume a uniform blanket of insulation with the thermometer in the center.
That's easy for you to control, because you'll be making the insulation blankets yourself out of newsprint or thin kitchen sponges or whatever. Just do your best to make them all the same.

There are no convective currents of fluid and no direct penetration by solar radiation of the glass in the thermometer. A thermometer in the back yard would experience both a day/night cycle of solar radiation and convective heat transport by air.
You can eliminate convective heat transport by placing your insulated thermometers within a vacuum. (I'm not sure why you think that's so important, because the convective medium would be the same for both thermometers, but I don't pretend to understand the difficulties you pretend to see here.)

The day/night cycle is immaterial because the effect of different colors will become clear enough in less than an hour of exposure to sunlight. (How do I know? Because I ran this experiment when I was about ten years old.)

If I recall correctly, you've said you live in Hawaii, where there is relatively little seasonal variation in weather. It is therefore conceivable that you genuinely do not understand why people throughout much of the world prefer to wear light-colored clothing in summer and darker clothing in winter. Performing the experiment I've suggested would improve your understanding of the world in which you live.
 
What does this "dance of the thermometers" mean? You're still in calorimetric mode1 and trying to make sense of albedo.2 You need a crash course of basic physics, chapter about heat.3 Urgently. And another course on not drawing conclusions from what you really don't know.4 And another one in good manners.52
This particular discussion is with Halsu. So far it's been civil.
1. Please, Mr. Post-Modern, explain "calorimetric mode".
2. Correct.
3. No "crash courses" for me. I prefer patient instruction. This discussion has interested me in thermodynamics, but since I have other things to do and I expect that I'd have to relearn differential equations, I probably won't get beyond generalities.
4. That's why I'm asking questions and trying to understand the basics.
5. Look who's talking,
 
Read McIntyre's site. Lately he's spent time on a rebuttal of the silly Lewandowsky survey, which is taking a howitzer to a mosquito. His larger issue is with protocols of data selection and analysis. He argues that it's improper to hunt for results in limited data sets without specifying in advance what limits determined the data set, since every possible shape inhabits a sufficiently large data set (go back to the sculptor who chips away everything that doesn't look like a horse, or whatever). Select the points you want from this space:...
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.and you can produce any shape you desire. Hockey stick, saw-tooth, exponential, whatever.

This was the issue with McIntyre's pursuit of the Yamal dendrochronologies. There were more sample sites available than Mann, et. al. used. They resisted McIntyre's efforts to get the raw data. The expanded data set (all available chronologies in the region) did not produce the signal that Mann. et. al. found.

Also, arguments wihout ad hominem suggest confidence.

Malcolm,

I'm not a climate scientist. I have a feeling you aren't either. Neither is McIntyre so unless you honestly didn't get what I was trying to say I can only assume the above was a deliberate side step.

What would it take for you to start accepting the considered opinions of climate scientists?
 
You can eliminate convective heat transport by placing your insulated thermometers within a vacuum. (I'm not sure why you think that's so important, because the convective medium would be the same for both thermometers, but I don't pretend to understand the difficulties you pretend to see here.)
A thermometer on the Earth's surface is not at the center of the Earth (Duh!). A thermometer on the solid surface of the Earth experiences a 24-hour cycle induced by the rotation of the Earth (Duh!). Thermometers on the solid surface, even if enclosed in evacuated chambers, will experience the effects of convective heat transport.
 
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This particular discussion is with Halsu. So far it's been civil.
1. Please, Mr. Post-Modern, explain "calorimetric mode".
2. Correct.
3. No "crash courses" for me. I prefer patient instruction. This discussion has interested me in thermodynamics, but since I have other things to do and I expect that I'd have to relearn differential equations, I probably won't get beyond generalities.
4. That's why I'm asking questions and trying to understand the basics.
5. Look who's talking,

1- Calorimeter. Your problems and ruminations go more on the improper way of adiabatic recipients than on radiation and energy budget.
2- Your thermometers and spheres have day and night? Have you ever consider this?
3- Then get your instruction elsewhere or ask here saying please and thank you. You are trying to get your mistakes corrected by "rape". I've already explained that and it continues to be the same.
4- No, don't twist my words as you do with everyone's here. I said you draw conclusions from what you don't know and you have no ethical problems with it. That's something that strongly differentiate you from everybody else being these days here.
5- More puerile evasion.
 
You can eliminate convective heat transport by placing your insulated thermometers within a vacuum. (I'm not sure why you think that's so important, because the convective medium would be the same for both thermometers, but I don't pretend to understand the difficulties you pretend to see here.)
A thermometer on the Earth's surface is not at the center of the Earth (Duh!).
Why do you think that's important, or even relevant?

A thermometer on the solid surface of the Earth experiences a 24-hour cycle induced by the rotation of the Earth (Duh!).
You have already been told (by someone who has already run the experiment) that the effect you say you wish to understand will become clear within an hour of starting the experiment.

Thermometers on the solid surface, even if enclosed in evacuated chambers, will experience the effects of convective heat transport.
That convection will be negligible if you place your insulated thermometers within a vacuum. You would want to suspend them within the vacuum using thin supports of a good thermal insulator.

If I may step back from such details for a moment: You appear determined to obstruct your learning process by pursuing call-to-perfection fallacies.

If you were thinking like a scientist, you'd want to find out. To find out, you'd conduct an experiment. All experiments have imperfections, so scientists will conduct even better experiments over time. Scientists do not use the potential imperfections of their experiments as an excuse to avoid performing experiments.
 
No. I assume a uniform blanket of insulation with the thermometer in the center. There are no convective currents of fluid and no direct penetration by solar radiation of the glass in the thermometer. A thermometer in the back yard would experience both a day/night cycle of solar radiation and convective heat transport by air.
Why, when that happens on the earth (hint - Hadley and Ferrel cells)?
 
Why do you think that's important, or even relevant?1
You have already been told (by someone who has already run the experiment) that the effect you say you wish to understand will become clear within an hour of starting the experiment.2
That convection will be negligible if you place your insulated thermometers within a vacuum. You would want to suspend them within the vacuum using thin supports of a good thermal insulator.3If I may step back from such details for a moment: You appear determined to obstruct your learning process by pursuing call-to-perfection fallacies.4If you were thinking like a scientist, you'd want to find out. To find out, you'd conduct an experiment.5
1. A sphere in orbit will experience a heat gain/loss cycle related to the period of rotation and revolution (no cycle at all of the rotation period equals the revolution period). Whatever the cycle, the center will be at a constant temperature if the body is spherical and uniform and the orbit is (nearly) circular. A thermometer on the surface of an airless body will experience the same cycle.
2. Then on Earth you will have witnessed only 1/24 th of the relevant data.
3. What moves the mercury? Radiative heat from the wall of the vacuum chamber. What warms the wall? Ambient air temperature and solar radiation.
4. I'd say "clean experiments".
 
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