Moderated Global Warming Discussion

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And are you scared to answer the rest of the part you cut

"That is not true, if you actually read the papers you would know that. They use terms like 'highly likely', and if you think that CO2 and methane are not green house gases please point us that way. Climate models are not perfect, but that is no reason to be contrary, address the actual models, not your shiboleth versions of them. What geochemical interactions do you want to discuss, what evidence of solar variability do you want to present, which specific atmosphere/biosphere, etc..
Talk about what you feel the models lack. You brought it up, right now is a good time to talk about these errors you say the models have.

that way you won't look like a poser.
 
"Crushing".I expect one problem I have in thinking clearly about the all this is the difference between "heat" and "energy". For example, this:..."When energy entering an otherwise closed system is greater than the energy leaving it, it warms up" is not inevitably the case. Entering energy can exceed energy leaving "an otherwise closed system" and not generate warming of the system if it gets stored as chemical energy (e.g., biomass) or potential energy (e.g., alpine lakes store the energy that evaporated the water from the oceans). You can put coal in the freezer and it will feel cold, for all the energy it contains.

And where is this storage of heat occurring, what do you think you are saying?

Where is the energy retained by green house gases going to? Alpine lakes do not store the energy used to evaporate the water from the oceans, that energy is released when the water vapor condenses into water droplets. So what is it that you think you are saying?
 
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If the basic physics is rock solid and implies warming, did Stephen Scneider not know any physics back in the 1970s?
Is ---> present tense
did ... know ---> past, the English way

That is the like of "if astronomy is rock solid, why did Copernicus believe orbits were circular?" Ah! Oh! We're back on the authoritative figures; you're back on your constant McIntyre and your Schneider -you didn't spell his name right once, I suppose as a sign of disdain on your part- as hesitant. Your voice giving power to figures in a primitive way. I see!
 
Ummm...






You were saying?

Ummmm...





We heve here effect, effect, cause. Not "causes". No feedbacks. A cause.

"Crushing".

C'mon, Malcolm! Please, come back when you have something to argue.

In point 3 of your post #5592 you showed coarse errors and blunders in a High School level of Physics (if you want, we'll add details on that), you also showed you can't safely develop a methodical reasoning with a purpose (if you want, ...), and you showed you don't do reality checks using your basic education to test what you think about AGW (if you want, ...).
 
I expect one problem I have in thinking clearly about the all this is the difference between "heat" and "energy". For example, this:..."When energy entering an otherwise closed system is greater than the energy leaving it, it warms up" is not inevitably the case. Entering energy can exceed energy leaving "an otherwise closed system" and not generate warming of the system if it gets stored as chemical energy (e.g., biomass) or potential energy (e.g., alpine lakes store the energy that evaporated the water from the oceans). You can put coal in the freezer and it will feel cold, for all the energy it contains.
And where is this storage of heat occurring, what do you think you are saying? Where is the energy retained by green house gases going to? Alpine lakes do not store the energy used to evaporate the water from the oceans, that energy is released when the water vapor condenses into water droplets. So what is it that you think you are saying?
Some of the solar energy that went into evaporation (and wind) reappears when water condenses. "Alpine" implies "above sea level". This energy reappears as erosion (friction) or light generated by hydroelectric dams. An ice cold gallon bottle of kerosene contanis a lot of (biologically) stored solar energy.
 
Some of the solar energy that went into evaporation (and wind) reappears when water condenses. "Alpine" implies "above sea level". This energy reappears as erosion (friction) or light generated by hydroelectric dams. An ice cold gallon bottle of kerosene contanis a lot of (biologically) stored solar energy.

Except for a tiny bit of light, all that stays inside the atmosphere as heat. The energy being trapped by CO2 is some 1000X the worlds electricity production and you think the 1% of that that electricity that makes it into space as radio waves or light is going to make a difference?
 
Are there seriously still deniers who dispute the basic physics of AGW?

I thought we were way past this.
 
Are there seriously still deniers who dispute the basic physics of AGW? I thought we were way past this.
There are apparently different conceptions of "basic". If Lubos Motl and Freeman Dyson qualify as "certified competent" in "basic physics", then either (a) that "basic physics" does not imply what AGW theorists claim, or (b) Dyson and Motl are lying.
 
There are apparently different conceptions of "basic". If Lubos Motl and Freeman Dyson qualify as "certified competent" in "basic physics", then either (a) that "basic physics" does not imply what AGW theorists claim, or (b) Dyson and Motl are lying.

Again option C) you are misrepresenting their beliefs is the correct answer. Show us one single example where Dyson says the physics of global warming are wrong.
 
There are apparently different conceptions of "basic". If Lubos Motl and Freeman Dyson qualify as "certified competent" in "basic physics", then either (a) that "basic physics" does not imply what AGW theorists claim, or (b) Dyson and Motl are lying.

Scientists can be wrong.

Now, when there are differing opinions, you pretty much have to play the odds unless you really do know the subject on a sound basis and can have your own informed opinion.

There are many thousands of working scientists in the fields related to the subject matter who understand the reality of AGW.

You have on the opposition, a handful of guys, some very smart, who have theoretical views that are at odds with their peers.

Who do you believe?

Remember this sort of thing has happened before.

Fred Hoyle was a proponent of a steady state universe. He thought the "Big Bang" was ridiculous, and in fact the term "Big Bang" was coined by him as a pejorative.

Hoyle maintained his belief in his steady state theory to his dying day. (However he modified it a few times over the years.)
 
Because proponents of the AGW theory insist that the basic physics is "rock solid", as though that basic physics implies warming, irrespective of biosphere/atmosphere interactions, geochemical/atmospheric interactions, ocean/amosphere interactions, or solar variability. I suspect that Dyson understands "basic physics". Don't you?

I think you got that arse backwards tbh, climate science insists that the basic physics are driven by the kinds of forces you mention and that Dyson hasn't taken the time to understand the complex inter-relationships between them.

At any rate, Dyson has not published contrary research demonstrating his scepticism so his opinion is just that - an opinion. An ill-considered one at that, I would go as so far as to say.
 

I find it a little hard to see how your message relates to the physics of the earth's atmosphere. After all, we are not talking about gasses trapped in steel ball, buried to the ground.

But like you said, it might be wise to take baby steps.

Step 1: Do you understand and agree with the scientific mainstream on the basics of the greenhouse effect?

Simplified version: sunlight passes through the atmosphere, bounces back partially as heat which gets trapped in the atmosphere because of it's different radiation wavelength, thus warming the earth's lower atmosphere and surface until an equilibrium has been reached. Note that this has nothing to do with the current warming or humans per se, it's just the same old greenhouse effect as it has gone on for billions of years.

Are you okay with the above, or do you disagree?
 
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You didn't try hard enough. Following the post to which you linked, you responded to several informative posts with arrogant affirmations of your uninformed beliefs and personal attacks against those who are trying to inform you.

Just look at yourself:

Ummm...You were saying?

Ummmm...We heve here effect, effect, cause. Not "causes". No feedbacks. A cause.

"Crushing".

From someone willing to talk physics, not from a post-modern ********ter.

No. I requested that people use their real names. I don't believe that anyone really has a birth certificate in the name of "Trakar", "Capel Dodger" or "A Unique Person".

I worked with cytologists at the UH PBRC as a diver/collector of sea urchins (which make accessible objects of their study) and with marine biologists and biochemists at the UH HIMB as a diver/collector of moray eels (ciguatera toxin research). They don't talk like this:..."Strategic latency", really? Note also the passive voice and cliche. I'll accept a correction, but that sounds more like a Poli Sci, Philosophy, or Literary Theory grad seminar than the hard science people I knew.

There are apparently different conceptions of "basic". If Lubos Motl and Freeman Dyson qualify as "certified competent" in "basic physics", then either (a) that "basic physics" does not imply what AGW theorists claim, or (b) Dyson and Motl are lying.
As has been pointed out, the (a) and (b) possibilities you are willing to consider do not cover the space of possible explanations.

In particular, it has been pointed out to you on several occasions, including the two posts immediately prior to the link you gave above, that Freeman Dyson actually does accept the reality of anthropogenic global warming. He's a contrarian optimist whose faith in technological progress leads him to conclude that we'll find some way to deal with AGW, but that's not at all the same as denying the reality or basic physics of AGW.

Lubos Motl is a string physicist turned blogger who likes to say provocative things. Although he often lampoons what he regards as poor climate science, I don't know whether he denies AGW or the physics of AGW outright. It doesn't really matter; he's no more of an authority on climate science than I am.

I'm still trying to understand how the surface temperature can depend on anything other than solar output and the radius of the Earth's orbit. Obviously it does, since there's a fairly regular 24-hour cycle in surface temperature where I live and the 8000 mile variation in the distance between me and the sun seems to small, compared to the 90 million+ mile total, to have the daily 10o F. or so effect that I observe.
During the day, the surface of the earth in your vicinity is exposed to the sun's radiation. During the night, the surface of the earth in your vicinity lies within the shadow cast by the other side of the earth.

If you put a shallow pan of water in the sunlight, it will become hotter as it (and the pan) absorbs the sun's radiation. If you then put that pan of water in the shade, it will cool off via the mechanisms known as convection and radiation.

The branch of physics known as thermodynamics includes quantitative laws that describe how fast these processes of heating and cooling will proceed. Those laws are beyond the comprehension of people who don't understand differential equations, and they aren't trivial even for people who do, but the physics is known, and is considered basic physics.

The dynamic equilibria that determine the temperature of the earth's surface have been understood in rough form for many years. The role played by carbon dioxide (among other atmospheric gases) is part of that well-established climate science. The anthropogenic increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide (from 315 ppm in 1958 to over 390 today) is indisputable. (If you don't believe me, ask Freeman Dyson.) The basic science, which has been known for more than a century, tells us that increasing levels of carbon dioxide (while holding everything else constant) will warm the planet.

There is no genuine dispute about what I wrote in the paragraph above. When people deny those basic facts, you may assume they are uninformed, lying, or too scared to acknowledge what they know.

The hard part is calculating how fast and how much the planet will warm up. That involves taking the very general differential equations given to us by the science of thermodynamics, specializing them to the specific circumstances of our planet, and solving those equations. That process is known as modelling. Planetary climate is extremely complicated, with lots of feedback between different subsystems, so modelling is hard. Reasonable people can argue about the accuracy of our models.

We can, of course, compare the results of our modelling to the observed evolution of our planet's climate. That has been done. It looks as though our best models are pretty good. Those models are broadly consistent with the many scientific observations that have been discussed at length in this and other threads.

That is why anthropogenic warming is now accepted as probable by almost all scientists. There is still some room for doubt, and the amount of room for doubt is still under dispute, but you are unlikely to find any informed, sane, and honest people who flatly deny the likelihood of AGW.

What (if anything) should be done to slow or to stop or to reverse anthropogenic global warming is a far more contentious question that lies within the realm of policy/politics. Most of the confusion that pervades discussion of this subject has come from the promotion of political views at the expense of science.
 
If you wish to take advantage of the E in JREF, you should be open to learning from them, even if what they are telling you goes against your political beliefs..
Be careful about those assumptions of political orientation. It's true the relation between political orientation and acceptance or skepticism of the AGW theory means trouble. AGW should be a matter of fact (one way or the other), perhaps difficult to ascertain but not a matter of politics. The theory seems to have political implications, one way or another. AGW advocacy supports socialists in their reach for control. AGW skepticism supports free marketeers in their rejection of control. The close relation between AGW and political orientation (the reliability with which you can predict someone's policy preference on, say, progressive income taxes, from his position on AGW) suggests that politics determines a scientific belief. On both sides. I suspect you would not get this kind of alignment if the consensus position of the world's astronomers was that a 1 km asteroid was going to impact Earth in ten years. The difference is that celestial mechanics is pretty well worked out. And cliques of astronomers don't lobby to get editors of professional journals fired for publishing papers critical of the clique. I hope, anyway.
 
The close relation between AGW and political orientation (the reliability with which you can predict someone's policy preference on, say, progressive income taxes, from his position on AGW) suggests that politics determines a scientific belief.

I suppose that the Arctic Sea Ice must be a firm believer on progressive income taxes...
 
You continue to play with different meanings of "basic" as you use it as "fundamental" when others have used it as "serving as a basis, starting point".
"Play" is unfair. I did not introduce the terms "fundamental".
...the world is warming, the ice is shrinking, the fundamental physics is rock solid...
I did not introduce "basic" (Iirc).
Are there seriously still deniers who dispute the basic physics of AGW?
Now we have three meanings of "basic physics", seems to me: 1) the conceptually minimal axiomatization, 2) 19th century classical mechanics and thermodynamics, and 3) whatever supports the larger theory (the basic assumptions of that larger theory). Dyson and Motl certainly understand #1, 2. I don't have a clue about quantum mechanics or operator theory. #3 is pretty close to a requirement that skeptics accept your premises.
I find it a little hard to see how your message relates to the physics of the earth's atmosphere. After all, we are not talking about gasses trapped in steel ball, buried to the ground.

But like you said, it might be wise to take baby steps.

Step 1: Do you understand and agree with the scientific mainstream on the basics of the greenhouse effect?

Simplified version: sunlight passes through the atmosphere, bounces back partially as heat which gets trapped in the atmosphere because of it's different radiation wavelength, thus warming the earth's lower atmosphere and surface until an equilibrium has been reached.
Dunno 'bout "understand", but I observe that the overnight low temperature at sea level iin Hilo is a lot higher than the overnight low on the summit of Mauna Loa. There's permanent ice in cracks in the wall of Mokuauweoweo caldera at 13,000 feet that wouldn't last at sea level. Yes. the atmosphere traps heat. Midday temperature is higher at sea level than at the summit (although you can get a sunburn much faster on the summit). If you get cold on the hike to the summit you can lie down in a pocket of sun-warmed black sand (volcanic ash). If you get hot, you can take of your shoes (if you wear shoes) and dig your toes a few inches into the black sand and cool off. Apparently the black sand, like the air, absorbes solar energy and releases it.

I'm not sure about "equilibrium" here. Is that an assumption or an observation? Does it have to be one equilibrium or can Earth slide from one equilibrium (say, heating the ocean) to another (storing energy as biomass)?

I expect you'all don't visit skeptic websites very often. One author at The Resilient Earth linked this:...
One of the greatest sources of uncertainty for future climate predictions is the response of the global carbon cycle to climate change. Although approximately one-half of total CO2 emissions is at present taken up by combined land and ocean carbon reservoirs, models predict a decline in future carbon uptake by these reservoirs, resulting in a positive carbon–climate feedback. Several recent studies suggest that rates of carbon uptake by the land and ocean have remained constant or declined in recent decades. Other work, however, has called into question the reported decline. Here we use global-scale atmospheric CO2 measurements, CO2 emission inventories and their full range of uncertainties to calculate changes in global CO2 sources and sinks during the past 50 years. Our mass balance analysis shows that net global carbon uptake has increased significantly by about 0.05 billion tonnes of carbon per year and that global carbon uptake doubled, from 2.4 ± 0.8 to 5.0 ± 0.9 billion tonnes per year, between 1960 and 2010. Therefore, it is very unlikely that both land and ocean carbon sinks have decreased on a global scale.
 
I suppose that the Arctic Sea Ice must be a firm believer on progressive income taxes...
There's probably an uncomfortable relation between beliefs one way or another about arctic sea ice (and Greenland glaciers, and high-altitude glaciers, and Antarctic glaciers and sea ice) and beliefs about progressive income taxes.
 
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