global warming denial

Theodore Kurita said:
Aren't you contradicting yourself again Shanek? You say that governments studies are tainted becuase of Special Interest Groups.

Wouldn't more taxes and more money going into the government and a BAN on Special Interest Group money eliminate any sort of bias?

No matter what you do, there will ALWAYS be individuals and corporations with political connections. Bans on special interest groups just keep people like you and me from trying to affect meaningful change. The only way to avoid this is to not give the government the ower to do these things in the first place. As Michael Cloud said, "The problem is not the abuse of power, it's the power to abuse."
 
Theodore Kurita said:
And PS... Ad Hominems in my posts are designed to get attention to my arguments.

Similar to Cain's style, only different.

I would submit that ad hominems detract from your arugment rather than call attention to them, and that Cain might not be the best person on this forum to emulate.
 
RandFan said:
The site does not "debunk" Milloys arguments as far as I can tell. It seems that it is discrediting Milloy simply because some of the things that he calls "junk science" is not really science.

Theodore, could you actually read your link and tell us why you think it discredits Milloy?

Again, "read this link" is not an argument.

Hold on there a minute, RandFan. You're the one that brought up Steven Milloy's argument with respect to DDT and used a "read this link" style of argument. You failed to present a valid argument of why we should accept Steven Milloy's apparent contention that DDT should not have been banned. Questions that you failed to answer in bringing that up are:

  1. DDT is a chemical pesticide. What were (are?) the claimed advantages and disadvantages of DDT (from all claimants)?
  2. Which of these advantages and disadvantages is Steven Milloy agreeing too?
  3. It's been 30 years since it was banned. Were there no replacements for DDT that the chemical industry could provide?
  4. If the advantages of DDT outweighed the disadvantages, why, after 5 Republican administrations and 2 Democratic administrations, hasn't the ban been overturned?

In other words, you seemed to think that Milloy has a case for removing the ban on DDT. Defend that proposition.


:hit:
 
dsm said:
Hold on there a minute, RandFan. You're the one that brought up Steven Milloy's argument with respect to DDT and used a "read this link" style of argument.

That is NOT true. The first mention of DDT in this thread was from Theodore Kurita in a post to me:

And as for Steven Miller himself, he says that DDT does not have any harmful effects.

Bull f****** shi**!

Look, it is right on his frontpage.

When RandFan mentioned Milloy, it was only to provide an example of someone dissenting against GW. TK brought up the DDT strawman.

You failed to present a valid argument of why we should accept Steven Milloy's apparent contention that DDT should not have been banned.

Since that is irrelevant to this thread, why should he? Why shouldn't it be on TK, who is using this as a credibility issue, to debunk what Milloy is really saying about DDT as opposed to making strawman versions of his claims? For that matter, why shouldn't TK just not even mention the DDT thing as it's completely irrelevant and focus on Milloy's arguments with regards to Global Warming?
 
dsm said:
Hold on there a minute, RandFan. You're the one that brought up Steven Milloy's argument with respect to DDT and used a "read this link" style of argument.
Hi dsm,

Thank you for the response.

This is wrong. I did not bring up Milloy's argument with respect to DDT. Theodore did. Please go back and check the record.

Theodore Kurita 02-27-2004 08:17 PM
And as for Steven Miller himself, he says that DDT does not have any harmful effects.
This is the first time that DDT is brought up.

My response was not simply to tell Theodore to go back and read the home page. On the contrary. I quoted material from Milloy's web site to demonstrate that Theodore was wrong (please see my post).

Now, what was my contention as it pertained to DDT? Hint: It had NOTHING to do with whether or not Milloy's argument is sound. My contention was that Theodore failed to make anything more than a fallacious argument.

I based my contention on the following points.
  • It is ad hominem argument.
  • It is an appeal to the gallery.
  • It is a straw man.
  • There is no premise, data or any substance to his argument.
You failed to present a valid argument of why we should accept Steven Milloy's apparent contention that DDT should not have been banned.
Whether or not "we should accept Steven Milloy's apparent contention" is not the issue.

The issue was simply that Theodore failed to make an argument.

Questions that you failed to answer in bringing that up are:...
There are three problems with this assertion.
  1. Since the questions that you ask have no bearing on whether or not Theodore made a valid argument then I could not be said to fail in bringing them up.
  2. If Milloys contention were at issue then your questions would not have been my responsibility but that of the opposition
  3. DDT is not the subject of the thread but a (supposed) argument by Theodore to attack Milloy's credibility. Since Theodore failed to make an argument it is not incumbent on me to rebut it. Just demonstrate that Theodore made a fallacious argument
    [/list=1] That being said I would of course be happy to answer your questions as best I can. Let me say before I do that I have said that I am not wedded to Milloy. He was the first example I could find. I do think that he has some very valid points.

    Let's take a look.

    Question #1: DDT is a chemical pesticide. What were (are?) the claimed advantages and disadvantages of DDT (from all claimants)?

    "All claimants?" I don't know. I'm not sure that I can answer that question with out some serious research. Can you explain the importance of "all claimants" and why we are unable to come to a conclusion with out this information?

    Do you believe that in every such instance we must know the claimed advantages and disadvantages of "all claimants"?

    According to the EPA Administrative Law Judge Edmund Sweeney, "“DDT is not a carcinogenic hazard to man"

    According to Milloy 85 million have died.

    you know, I made these points already.

    Question #2: Which of these advantages and disadvantages is Steven Milloy agreeing too?
    I see no reason to presume that Milloy didn't agree with any of them. Do you?

    Question #3: It's been 30 years since it was banned. Were there no replacements for DDT that the chemical industry could provide?
    I don't know, was there?

    It's kind of hard to prove a negative. If you are saying that it is sloppy work on behalf of Milloy to not address this then I would say that you may be right. However it only proves Milloy did not address the point. It does not prove Milloy wrong.

    Question #3: If the advantages of DDT outweighed the disadvantages, why, after 5 Republican administrations and 2 Democratic administrations, hasn't the ban been overturned?
    Presumptuous. The argument assumes that governments failure to overturn the ban proves that the ban is scientifically sound. Yet there is ample evidence that the government reularly fails to change laws and policy in the face of opposing evidence.

    In other words, you seemed to think that Milloy has a case for removing the ban on DDT. Defend that proposition.
    "Seemed to think"?

    "Seemed to think" is not equivalant to "proposition".

    I'll tell you what. Milloy has made a case. He has provided argument and data. Why don't you rebut that?
 
You beat me to it. :D

shanek said:
That is NOT true. The first mention of DDT in this thread was from Theodore Kurita in a post to me:

When RandFan mentioned Milloy, it was only to provide an example of someone dissenting against GW. TK brought up the DDT strawman.

Since that is irrelevant to this thread, why should he? Why shouldn't it be on TK, who is using this as a credibility issue, to debunk what Milloy is really saying about DDT as opposed to making strawman versions of his claims? For that matter, why shouldn't TK just not even mention the DDT thing as it's completely irrelevant and focus on Milloy's arguments with regards to Global Warming?
And I get hit over the head with a mallet. :hit:
 
shanek said:

That is NOT true. The first mention of DDT in this thread was from Theodore Kurita in a post to me:

Oops, missed that one (which destroys the rest of what I said). Mea culpa.
 
dsm said:
Oops, missed that one (which destroys the rest of what I said). Mea culpa.
Not a problem.

For what it is worth, I have found an outstanding web site that deals with global warming. It is very thought provoking and done in such a way that it does not preach but rather leads the reader through various steps to help the reader make an informed decision.

The idea is that the reader is an investigative journalist and must decide what is and isn't valid information.

I don't usually refer people to sites like this but this one is done so well and also takes the time to teach critical thinking and skepticism. The information is presented in layman terms and is well organized. I realy think that everyone in the debate can really appreciate the information.

Global Warming Part 1: Detecting the Truth

Imagine yourself as an inquisitive detective. You've heard rumors and news reports about global warming, but you're just not sure whom to believe. You're going to begin with some investigative reporting, and you need to decide what your best detective's approach will be. What sorts of questions can you ask, and how will you go about finding the information you need to answer your questions? What facts would it take to convince you one way or the other?

Start your investigation by examining some false stories that have appeared in the media, like eggs standing on end only on the vernal equinox. Your investigation begins here . . .


Global Warming Part 6: The Global Warming Debate

A wealth of scientific studies suggests that humans are at least partly responsible for current global warming trends — despite this though, there are scientists, groups, and individual citizens who actively contest and debate global warming — especially the idea that humans are partly responsible. As a detective, these are important issues to consider. Is the science on climate change unsound? Do these debates suggest that you, as a detective, should not place much confidence in the climate change research (and consensus based on that scientific research) that humans are involved? Why or why not?

Objectives
  • Understand that skepticism and debate surrounding scientific inquiry can actually be beneficial to discovering underlying truth
  • Recognize the importance of thinking critically about the source of information
 
Ok. here is a good criticism of Milloy's Global Warming ideas and policy:

This one comes from the Washington Post.

If You Seek the Truth, Don't Trash the Science
By John Schwartz
Sunday, February 21, 1999; Page B01
The Washington Post

There's a coffee mug on my desk that's a daily reminder of what's wrong with science these days. It's a freebie sent to reporters like me who cover the subject, and it comes from a man named Steven Milloy who runs a popular site on the World Wide Web devoted to knocking down "junk science."

The mug gives the Web address, www.junkscience.com (motto: "All the junk that's fit to debunk"), and the rest of the mug is decorated with acronyms and phrases that exemplify Milloy's idea of debunked junk: DDT, EMFs (electromagnetic fields), Gulf War Syndrome, alar, global warming, silicone breast implants and more.

There's a huge irony at work here, of course. It's science, after all, that has effectively laid some of those controversies to rest (no authoritative study has found that EMFs from overhead power lines cause cancer, for example). But others, such as global warming, are still part of a serious ongoing debate. And so it should be. If there is one clear way in which science is abused, it is by reducing its deliberate, complex method of discovery to the kind of epigrams that you can display on a coffee mug. Yet, here is the self-proclaimed "Junkman" calling the ball dead on controversy after controversy.

When I called him up and asked him about it, Milloy emphasized that he was simply trying to attract people to his site, where they could read more. And while that might be true, the problem with terms such as "junk science"--which, like "political correctness," originated in conservative circles--is that they are used not to spark debate but to cut it short. Science, on the other hand, is in large part about keeping the conversation going.

What happens if we cut short the conversation on topics such as global warming? It is pretty well established that temperatures are on the rise. But there are huge gaps in our knowledge about whether human activity has caused that rise, and what human activity might be able to do to reverse the process. Can we afford to dismiss the topic now, putting off any study of what prudent steps we might need to take to be certain that there's nothing to worry about?

Good science is all about taking those steps, and gradually accumulating a more detailed body of knowledge along the way. The scientific method involves coming up with ways to prove that something is true, independent of politics or opinion. Each theory gets examined and tested by others in an effort to see if the results can be duplicated. The theory that the sun revolves around the Earth, for example, was disproved by observations of the motions of heavenly bodies. The idea of a flat earth could be debunked by observing the slow emergence of the mast of a ship as it comes over the horizon.

Where we run into trouble is when we demand more of science than it can rightly give us--when we demand things like absolute certainty and speed. The more complex the issues, the harder it is and the longer it takes to do the science. It's a process full of false starts and missteps.

Take just one example. In 1981, Harvard epidemiologist Brian MacMahon and his colleagues published a report in the New England Journal of Medicine suggesting that coffee might cause pancreatic cancer. The findings were unexpected, and the media went wild. But science abounds with surprises. (After all, researchers believed that ulcers were caused by stress and stomach acidity until Australian researchers ferreted out the real culprit, the bacterium helicobacter pylori. Their results were reproduced, and today, treatment has shifted from stomach-acid blockers to antibiotics.)

Scientists tried, but weren't able to duplicate MacMahon's coffee/cancer results. And subsequent studies--including a 1986 followup by MacMahon--have not found any link between drinking reasonable amounts of coffee and pancreatic cancer. The issue is all but dead now. Failure? Those who shout "junk science" might say so. But that's the scientific method at work.

The incident underscores one of the problems with press coverage of science: Science is a long movie, and the news media generally take mere snapshots. As Victor Cohn wrote in his book "News and Numbers": "The first thing to understand about science is that it is almost always uncertain." Casual readers of the news look at this back-and-forth process of thesis, refutation and discovery and can be forgiven if they conclude that these guys just can't get it right. As one epidemiologist put it, "Some people think science ought to be clean and easy. It's not. It's messy." In fact, scientific discovery moves less as the crow flies than as a sailboat tacks, first this way, then that, but edging ever forward.

The uncomfortable fact that scientific findings can be all over the map, especially in its early stages of looking at a problem, has made it ripe for exploitation in the courtroom. Trial lawyers jumped into breast-implant litigation, for example, and won multimillion-dollar judgments against the makers for claims that the devices had caused autoimmune diseases such as scleroderma and lupus. They often relied on hired "experts" whose work has not stood up to the scrutiny of their peers.

The explosion of litigation in the courtroom based on weak science was decried by commentators such as Peter W. Huber of the Manhattan Institute for Policy Research, who brought the phrase "junk science" to the nation's attention in a series of books that argued for reform of the nation's courts. State tort reform efforts and decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court have given judges greater responsibility for narrowing the roster of scientific experts and evidence presented to juries.

In the case of implants, however, the companies themselves had little to fight back with at first, since they had not performed the kinds of studies that could have established their products' safety. A series of studies published since the mid-1990s has found no strong link between implants and autoimmune disease, and juries that review that scientific evidence have increasingly decided cases in favor of the implant makers.

Now implants are considered the ne plus ultra of junk science by critics such as Milloy and George Mason University Law School associate professor David Bernstein. Publicist David Fenton, who trumpets to his trial-lawyer clients any study that suggests implants pose a risk, has been demonized as a spinner of junk science. The fact remains that, although recent studies undermine the wild claims of serious illness caused by implants, they do not rule out the possibility that implants increase the risk of more rare autoimmune diseases or atypical diseases, and research continues at the National Institutes of Health, the Food and Drug Administration, and elsewhere--just as it should.

The pressure on the scientist in the lab from both the left and right has been so great that some of the people at the National Cancer Institute last year held a small seminar on doing science in controversial areas. None of them would talk to me on the record about it, though--every time their names show up in the paper, they say, they are called to give depositions in another lawsuit. As scientists on the government payroll, they realize that the public has a right to scrutinize their work. At the same time, one told me, "you have to keep your eye on the science, keep moving forward."

Thanks to attitudes like that, science still enjoys a reputation of impartiality, and we continue to look to research as the underpinning for our social policies and our legislative crusades. But, at the same time, that idealism can't help but look almost quaint in a world in which science is spun from all sides. Science is, in many ways, inherently political--it is the foundation of national policy, and the government budget processes that set research agendas are debated by lawmakers. Interest groups and disease-oriented organizations lobby for their causes, lawsuits hang on the results of studies--and scientists are left to try to do their work in a minefield.

So I wasn't surprised to see that junk science and politicized science were central to the agenda of last week's conference held by the Independent Women's Forum, titled "Scared Sick." The IWF contends that many women don't understand complex scientific issues and have developed unfounded fears about illnesses because of a cabal of liberals, environmental extremists, feminists and trial lawyers.

But the scientific foundation for those broad claims was scant--even, one might dare to say, junky. The proof that many women don't "get" science came down to a single survey cited by presenter after presenter, a report from the Harvard Center for Risk Analysis that found women tended to rank the risk of a series of environmental issues as a greater hazard than did men. Only lunch speaker Marcia Angell, executive editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, pointed out that the differences between the perceptions of men and women were quite small--and that the study could just as well indicate that men underplay risk.

What's a consumer to do? How can you hope to find out whether a given product is actually safe (which is all most of us are really interested in)? Anyone hoping to make sense of the science news and the political battles surrounding it has to develop antennae for judging each new story and study. The most reliable information is likely to come from that peer-reviewed journal, though that's no guarantee. A good story should say whether a finding is new, or confirms an existing body of research--anyone who stopped drinking coffee in 1981 out of fears of getting pancreatic cancer suffered through a lot of bleary-eyed mornings for nothing. And let's hope people aren't put off eating cancer-fighting fresh fruits and vegetables by the report last week about the possible health risks of pesticide residues on those foods.

But most of all, any reader's ears should prick up when they hear phrases like "politicized science" or "junk science" being tossed about. The claim may be right--but anyone who makes it should be vetted for politics and junk as well.

John Schwartz is a science reporter for The Washington Post.


Here is a book review of Steven Milloy's most recent book, Junk Science Judo...

This review was done by Terence Hines of the Skeptical Inquirer. In other words it was done by one of the organizations that James Randi leads.


Here it is:

A blunderbus approach to criticism of statistics. (Book Reviews). (book review)
Skeptical Inquirer, Sept-Oct, 2002, by Terence Hines

Junk Science Judo. By Steven J. Milloy. CATO Institute, 2001. ISBN 1-930865-12-0. 215 pp. Hardcover, $18.95.

Junk Science Judo is an annoying and shallow book that will not provide the reader with anything like a full account of the problems with junk science and the means to combat it. The author discusses some of the usual outrages of the health hysteria mongers such as claims that cell phones cause brain cancer and that Alar was a carcinogen. But the book is oddly incomplete in this regard. Missing is any coverage of the claims that power lines cause cancer or that breast implants result in immune diseases. These are two of the clearest cases of hysteria-mongering, and their inclusion would have made the book much more compelling by giving crystal-clear examples of why the media-induced fears are unfounded. Oddly, the real target of this book seems to be a poorly defined boogeyman labeled "statistics." Certainly, sloppy use and interpretation of statistics is one of the major problems at the heart of unfounded health fears. A book that would clearly explain the often subtle statistical errors made by promoters of health fears would be a valuable contribution. Unfortunately, this is nor that book.

Milloy's crude broad-brush condemnation of statistics is nicely summed up by his oft-repeated phrase "statistics aren't science." This is like saying "tools aren't carpentry." True enough, but one is going to get damn little carpentry done without tools, even if tools can (duh!) be abused and used incorrectly. The real problem is that Milloy, as judged from his writing, simply doesn't understand statistical techniques well enough to be able to write cogent criticisms of the poor statistical techniques used to support various health scares. In most cases when he uses the term statistics" he really means "correlations." For example, on page 59 he stares, "No study that reports only statistical results can prove a cause-and-effect relationship" (emphasis added). This is a simply absurd statement and would never be made by an author who had even a basic knowledge of statistical procedures. There is an entire class of statistical analyses, called inferential statistics, which are designed precisely to allow resea rchers to draw causal inferences. Milloy's comment would be true if he substituted "correlational" for "statistical." It is certainly true that the finding of a correlation (the term doesn't even appear in the book's index) between two variables does not allow one to conclude that there is a causal relationship between the two correlated variables. But Milloy's ignorance of this fundamental difference between correlations and inferential statistics renders his argument confusing, to say the least.

At other times, Milloy uses the term statistics" in slightly different ways. While he never discusses what inferential statistics are, and how they can be used properly to draw conclusions, he does discuss (in chapter 6) the concept of statistical significance and p values. A p value is a probability value ranging from 0 to 1 that gives the probability of the obtained result being due to chance. The higher the p value, the more likely the obtained result is to have been the result of chance factors. Putting it the other way around, the smaller the p value, the greater the probability is that the results are not due to chance factors--that they are due to the factors manipulated in the experiment. By general agreement, a p value of .05 or less is accepted as a "significant" result. When discussing p values (p. 108) Milloy makes another absurd statement: "How researchers calculate the p-value is not important." This is like saying, going back to the tool and carpentry analogy, that it doesn't matter how a carp enter makes a hole in the wall--a bulldozer is as good as a skill saw. In fact, there are hundreds of different statistical procedures that can be used to calculate a p value. Deciding which one to use on a particular set of data is far from a trivial problem. It is a problem that those of us who teach statistics probably spend more time on in class than anything else. If you do use the wrong procedure, you'll get a p value that is simply wrong. And you will often be badly misled as to what your results really mean. I have found (Hines 1998, 2001) that using the wrong procedure to calculate a p value is very common in experiments that claim to support various pseudosciences.

The author's ignorance of the real nature of, and problems with, statistics time and again prevents him from making his arguments against various health scares as effective as they should be. In chapter 11, "Tricks Are for Kids," he discusses studies that claim to show that exposure to this or that substance causes cancer. A common procedure in such studies is to examine the relationship between exposure and the rate of numerous different types of cancers (or other ailments). When one, or maybe two, significant relationships are found, the "fact" that substance X "causes" cancer type Y is certified. This is the problem of multiple comparisons. If we accept a p value of .05 as indicating significance, we are also accepting that 5 percent of the time, a result will be "significant" simply by chance alone. So, if you look at the effects of exposure to, say, postage stamps on 120 different types of cancer even if postage stamps do not cause cancer, for 5 percent of the cancer types examined there will be a "sign ificant" relationship. Now, of course, on average three of these relationships will show that postage stamp exposure increases the risks of the cancers and three will show that exposure decreases the risks. The decreased risk findings just never get any press. This sort of serious statistical blunder is especially serious in studies claiming to link power lines to various cancers and PCB pollution to developmental disorders (Hines 2002). But Milloy barely mentions this problem.

In another instance, Milloy simply seems not to have read the relevant literature. On page 118 he is properly critical of estimates of the economic costs of cigarette smoking by noting that the claims that "differences in medical expenditures between smokers and nonsmokers are due only to smoking" are "probably not true" due to other differences between smokers and nonsmokers. But those huge estimates of the economic "costs" of smoking can be criticized on much more serious grounds. Reports of smoking-related costs are just that--reports of the costs only. They do not take into account the cost savings that result from smoking. Unfortunately, us non-smokers aren't immortal. We're going to die of something. The fact is that lung cancer, the major fatal disease of smokers, kills you relatively young and relatively fast, and thus relatively cheaply. So smokers generally die at a time when they have lived a productive life but before they have a chance to develop many of the chronic and debilitating, to say noth ing of extremely expensive, diseases of old age such as Alzheimer's disease. Dead smokers are also less likely collect social security payment and retirement benefits. The point is not that it is "good" that smoking kills people. The point is that any rational economic analysis of the effects of a behavior like smoking must take into account both the real costs and the real cost savings associated with the behavior. For example, a recent Dutch study (Barendregt et al. 1997) estimated that the lifetime average health care costs for smokers is $83,700 and for non-smokers $97,200.

The numerous serious flaws in the logic and coverage of this book render it essentially useless as a guide to the detection of junk science. This is a real shame as the book does contain interesting and important nuggets of information. I was unaware, for example, that in studies of the risks of secondhand smoke the EPA arbitrarily changed the p value for significance from .05 to .075, thereby shifting a finding of the risks from "non-significant" to significant." It appears that secondhand smoke isn't a health risk-- though in my view that doesn't mean smoking shouldn't be banned. Secondhand smoke is still annoying, and that is sufficient grounds for a ban--just as we would feel no compunction about banning drinkers at a bar from spitting part of their bourbon and water on the folks around them. As the book stands, it comes across as little more than an ill-thought-out temper tantrum against those damn "statistics."

References

Barendregt, J.J., L. Bonneux, and P.J. van der Maas. 1997. The health care costs of smoking. New England Journal of Medicine 337, 1052-1057.

Hines, T.M. 1998. Comprehensive review of biorhythm theory. Psychological Reports 83, 19-64.

-----. 2001. The Doman-Delacato patterning treatment for brain damage. Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine 5, 80-89.

-----. 2002. Pseudoscience and the Paranormal. 2nd edition. Amherst NY: Prometheus Books.

Terence Hines is in the psychology department, Pace University, Pleasantville NY 10570-2799. A second edition of his book Pseudoscience and the Paranormal is being published by Prometheus this year.
COPYRIGHT 2002 Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal
COPYRIGHT 2002 Gale Group


Now do you understand what I meant by Steven Milloy's industry bias.
 
RandFan said:
Not a problem.

For what it is worth, I have found an outstanding web site that deals with global warming. It is very thought provoking and done in such a way that it does not preach but rather leads the reader through various steps to help the reader make an informed decision.

The idea is that the reader is an investigative journalist and must decide what is and isn't valid information.

I don't usually refer people to sites like this but this one is done so well and also takes the time to teach critical thinking and skepticism. The information is presented in layman terms and is well organized. I realy think that everyone in the debate can really appreciate the information.

Ummm, there's something missing here -- like the address of the web-site...:eek:

:wink:
 
Theodore Kurita said:
Now do you understand what I meant by Steven Milloy's industry bias.
Theodore,

Is it possible for you to read the articles and provide a synopsis? What in the article do you think is the most damaging?
 
dsm said:
Ummm, there's something missing here -- like the address of the web-site...:eek:

:wink:
"What a waste it is to lose one's mind. Or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."
-- Vice President Dan Quayle
 
RandFan said:
Theodore,

Is it possible for you to read the articles and provide a synopsis? What in the article do you think is the most damaging?

The article done by the Skeptical Inquirer is the best done.

You have to read the article for yourself.

The stuff that is elaborated upon is in so much detail.

To put it bluntly, both articles explain how shallow he is, and how shallow his arguments are.
 
Theodore Kurita said:
To put it bluntly, both articles explain how shallow he is, and how shallow his arguments are.
Theodore,

I know this is going to come off as patronizing and I apologize for that. My intentions however are sincere. I would like to get you to formulate an argument. You have some real good information to work with.

Ok, you say the articles explain how shallow Milloy is. This is your proposition, that Milloy is shallow. To support that proposition we need one or more premises. Can you quote at least one premise (sentence, statement) that shows that Milloy is shallow?

Could I suggest a better proposition? How about, Milloy is misleading. I think that is a simpler proposition based on the evidence provided. Understand that a proposition can be itself a premise. So the fact that Milloy is misleading could be part of an argument that he is also shallow. Can you quote at least one premise (sentence, statement) that shows that Milloy is misleading?

I have read the articles. I would like to know why you think they say what they say.
 
varwoche said:
The denial of global warming, and the denial that burning fossil fuels contributes, has about the same intellectual honesty as holocaust denial.

The problem is that the issue of global warming, even compared to the generally abysmal way in which scientific issues are dealt with publically, is unusually and stupidly polarized.

Basically, there's Group A, who is absolutely convinced of a package deal. Not only does global warming occur, but it spells immediate disaster in the near future. They know exactly what do do about it, are sure exactly how to go about it, and know that they're smarter and more politically conscious than anybody else.

The there is everybody else who, regardless of their actual views and perceptions, are variously described by Group A as Randroid capitalists intent on chuckling while they stripmine the entire planet, baby-eating monsters, or as you have put it, holocaust-deniers.

This destroys science, because science thrives on questioning, and the polarization makes it impossible to question anything about it without immediately being branded as Dr. Evil and Mini Me combined.

(edited to fix typo)
 
epepke said:


The problem is that the issue of global warming, even compared the the generally abysmal way in which scientific issues are dealt with publically, unusually and stupidly polarized.

Basically, there's Group A, who is absolutely convinced of a package deal. Not only does global warming occur, but it spells immediate disaster in the near future. They know exactly what do do about it, are sure exactly how to go about it, and know that they're smarter and more politically conscious than anybody else.

The there is everybody else who, regardless of their actual views and perceptions, are variously described by Group A as Randroid capitalists intent on chuckling while they stripmine the entire planet, baby-eating monsters, or as you have put it, holocaust-deniers.

This destroys science, because science thrives on questioning, and the polarization makes it impossible to question anything about it without immediately being branded as Dr. Evil and Mini Me combined.
:clap:
 

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