Ghosts, Spirits, and Angels

[Ed]

As with many woo beliefs, the answer is "not proven". Then there is the practicle, day to day attitude that governs one's life "no way in 9+ hells". Sorta depends.

 

[chrisberez]

I have talked with people who said they have seen rooms in their homes which arent theirs, for example, a room could have furniture from the 1700's and some one would be in there but then it would vanish as soon as they go in.

You realize of course that anecdotes do not constitute satisfactory evidence?

 

[Dhaos Knight]

yeah i know. speaking of evidence, do sound recordings count? cause if i can get the equipment i can try and get some. but the equipment might go on my want but will never afford list, it costs around god knows what, plus shipping and handling. but who cares right? ghosts from what ive seen can be nothing more then a figment of ones immiganation. my neice, Raine, says her paraents tuck her in every night, but since she has no living family (shes extended family because of some friends) she thinks their ghosts can put her to bed. shes only 6 so i think her immigination is running away with the truth. i have had people ask why i am facinated with ghosts.
1. you cant see them
2. when thier existance is shown in one area it doesnt last long
3. proving they exist is more then a challange for me
4. half the time when you see a ghost program on tv i sit there and laugh at the fake psychic people because from what ive read they are doing that stuff wrong
5. its just fun to chase down something you cant figure out

what we fail to understand, we fear, thus why we have ghost stories. some do not fear what they dont understand, some accept it and try to understand it and see if its real or not, much like you people on here. i think wether ghost exist or not is weather we accpet what we see and hear about them. mostly it may be some one pulling a practical joke, but some times the paranormal can never be proven to be real. maybe ghosts just exist but we cant prove it yet. ghost stories, untill then, are just that, stories. maybe when we reach heaven (or our own personal nirvana in the sky, maybe the floating island of mandango where what you like the most happens every day) we will never know.

 

[Jyera]

... what we fail to understand, we fear, ...

I feel that this statement is not true.

We do not know and understand many things but most don't bother us. Eg. We don't understand what a rabbit goes on in its mind". Yet we don't fear rabbits.

If however what we encounter seems dangerous, then it starts to bother us. (eg. first time encounter lighting and very loud thunder.)

The lack of rational explanation of something that seems threatening, causes us to seeks answers. Most of the time the truth is not easy to find. But this cannot go on forever, so most people find the need to grab some "probable" belief.

First, the belief that "there indeed might be ghost".
It is this belief that started the fear.

Then the belief that "the ghost are bad and might harm you".
It is this belief that started the fear of danger.

And for this, it is very very sad that many people allow themselves to go to the cinemas to watch horror movies.

Most movies painted the "wrong" and negative image that ghost are sinister.
This is a harmful stereotype.
Every time a person go and see a horror movie, s/he has given up his own free will to be free from the fear of ghost.

If all entertainment producers has conscience, they should all produce movies portraying friendly ghost. (If they need to talk about ghost at all.)

But I don't think this can happen. This is because even in the lack of ghost there is the sense of guilt that society will want to impose on us.

 

[Marian]

yeah i know. speaking of evidence, do sound recordings count?

It would be evidence, the question is, would it be credible evidence.

Let's pretend I decided I wanted to fool people with my fake 'ghost' recordings.

So I get recording equipment and then do a voice over which I claim is a 'ghost'. People decide to spend time and resources testing my 'claim'. So the tape is analyzed, and the voice is found to be just a normal human voice.

Well OF COURSE it is, (I say) because it's the ghost's voice and she was a normal human. Why wouldn't her voice sound that way.

Anyway, it's easy to get to the point where you can't disprove it because you cannot know the conditions under which it was made. But it doesn't make it credible evidence when there's another more reasonable explaination.

So...let's say I decide fine, the main objection is no one knows how it was made. So I get some people over, people who are respected and are just normal people. Then I hide sound equipment to project the 'ghost voice' into the room. Same recording, same sound. Aha! I exclaim, my tape is PROOF now.

Well no, it's not (plus its fake ). Again, unless someone is present and finds the other equipment they can't 100% disprove it. Yet, once again we can say that someone planting sound equipment and making a fake is a more reasonable explaination for the normal human voice on tape, than 'ghost'.

And so it goes. And it seems to me that people who just want to believe (or perhaps need to, I don't know) cling to the shreds that are 'you cannot 100% disprove it unless you clearly uncover the fakery'. Yet even if I made such a tape, and conned people into truly believing in it, and THEN showed how it was done, you'd have some people probably still believing in it anyway, and most of the rest who previously believed would just say 'Okay that one was a fake, but what about THIS authentic tape over here...' :\

 

[Dhaos Knight]

yet a ghost voice is supposed to be running at 300 hzts and lower so we cant hear it with out equipment. thus if analyzed and found to be in that scale, would it actually be considered real proof or just another fake. some times 'Ghosts' can appear in dreams, one did in mine last night, and I didnt want it to end but it did, oh damn!

Ghosts maybe just something we will never prove to be real. who knows, maybe one day we can prove they are real and make them appear infront of us so we can ask them questions about what life was like when they were living.

 

[Correa Neto]

Recorded voices?
Orb pictures?
Interpretation of blurred pictures (Jesus, Mary, ghosts, aliens, brown people)?

Well, so far the evidence presented is quite weak, not to mention the frauds...

Note that if the supposed effects do exist, they should be recorded quite often at many unrelated experiments and devices. Does this happens?

For example, IR cameras left to monitor wildlife have ever catched the image of a ghost?

If they did, the effects could be successfully detected, recorded and measured by controlled experiments. Were they?

And the fear of ghosts... Think about it- they woud be proof of life after death, out beloved lost relatives coming back to say "hi!". Is this something to be afraid of?

So, if a given group fears say, werewolves, does this proves there are werewolves?

 

[ProudAtheist]

It's amazing how active some people's imaginations can get. It's more probable to find Elvis' face in a cornflake than it is to prove the existance of ghosts.

 

[thaiboxerken]

There is no scientific evidence that ghosts exist. All the "evidence" we have are faked or questionable photoes, faked or questionable recordings and testimonies. None of these can be classified as reliable evidence. With as many testimonies of ghosts that are out there, there should be some reliable evidence that ghosts exist, yet there is none.

 

[rppa]

yet a ghost voice is supposed to be running at 300 hzts and lower so we cant hear it with out equipment.

I assume you mean Hz. I assure you that 300 Hz is well within the range of sounds you can hear without special equipment, being above middle C on the piano.

 

[jj]

There is no scientific evidence that ghosts exist. All the "evidence" we have are faked or questionable photoes, faked or questionable recordings and testimonies. None of these can be classified as reliable evidence. With as many testimonies of ghosts that are out there, there should be some reliable evidence that ghosts exist, yet there is none.

Funny, innit? Just like PSI, precog, etc. For all the claims, not a bit of solid evidence, well, excepting Interesting Ian's.

 

[Anders]

Re: Re: Re: Ghosts, Spirits, and Angels

One more time:

Dhaos Knight is my son ...

I'm sorry, I didn't know that, as I don't really read every post on this forum, the only way I would have known that, is if I'd stumbled on a post that said that You were his father.

When my dad died in 2000 the day after Thanksgiving, it was very sudden, and there was a lot of unfinished business between him and us. This is where part of this is coming from. A small part, but a part.

I have my deepest sympaties, I know just too well how painfull it is to loose a close relative.

We've already discussed the prize. We've already discussed the terms of the prize. My son already knows, James Randi does not cheat, nor is he a bad person, he simply requires solid, credible evidence.

Again, I didn't know that, I had no idea. To me, Dhaos Knight, could as well be a 45 year religous man that truly believes in angels and daemons. I have no way of telling(unless I read every post on the forum or do a search on "Dhaos Knight", but I don't do that)

The remark about that Dhaos Knight would think certain things about Mr Randi, just reflects what many people with religous beliefs think about Mr Randi.

Anders, there is ZERO need to pull a cheap shot. None. Regardless of what anyone thinks, no one needs to be treated in a shabby manner. I don't put up with it when it happens to someone else; what makes you think I'll accept that treatment of my son? If you disagree, say so. (As you have, previously, without resorting to underhanded remarks.)

And again, under these circomstances perhaps my remarks were shabby, and I appologize. But, and this is a big but, I will never, ever, stop critizising religous believes.

Seriously, I thought you had more class than that.

Well, it is not up to me to say if I have class or not. I acctully think I'm a little shabby...

Oh, BTW, I'm thirty something, I have a M.Sc degree, and I'm an atheist.