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Getting started with Linux

chulbert said:
You're talking about kernels by the third paragraph, arguably the first paragraph of actual content. By the end, you've touched on swap space, RAM disks and data compression. The last half of your article is mere mitigation of how much it's going to suck running an operating system off a CD.


Well, I thought about starting a new thread to reply, but this one's pretty much shot as far as my original intent anyhow -- which is OK. No one seemed to reply who was new to the idea of linux. But the replies that did come were good; I've enjoyed the way it turned out.

I agree with you when I say Linux is for a more technical user than your average Joe. That is why I carefully chose my words in my original post. I didn't avoid discussing things that most users have no experience with, because if they decide to try out Linux, they're going to end up experiencing them, and they have to be of that mindset. You will notice that I gave a description of what each unfamiliar term was in layman's lingo, so it was easy to understand if you aren't afraid of new things.

I think of the 23-year old salesguy at my office, who is not a "computer guy" by *any* stretch of the imagination, but he is very bright, and when I explain things as I did in my original post, he follows them very well. He had never heard of Linux before, but now that our entire office has been using it for some time, he quite likes it. (Although in fairness, I beleive some of his enjoyment is watching one of his disliked officemates struggle with the same Linux system.)

Unfortunately, I'll take the lack of replies from such people to mean they either aren't out there, or I did not explain it well enough.

This is why you're never going to take the desktop market.

English is a funny language. It's very difficult -- or impossible -- to distinguish between the singular and plural forms of "you." Therefore, I'm not sure how to take your rather rude comment.

If I choose to take it as singular, and you are referring to me, then you are mistaken as to my business. I program online credit card processing networks. I have no interest in the "desktop." I will, however, take the online processing market -- you just watch.

If I choose to take it as a plural, then I expect you are being prosaic, and you mean "the linux zealots" -- I would say "community" but the "community" has no interest in "taking," as you put it, the desktop market. Only the zealots do. Your comment is extremely out of place.

As you might have inferred from my comment about my office, I do have some experience exposing "the average joe" to linux in a controlled environment. And I have many regrets about taking our office to a full-on Linux environment. Not enough to outweigh the reasons we went to Linux, though, so as time passes I will only gain more knowledge of how the system lacks -- and in how it excels.

If I hadn't had that experience, I might have been so bold as to tell people to install linux, instead of asking them to check it out, risk-free. I know better than to do that. Linux isn't for everyone. It may not even be for most people. I *had* hoped to reach someone who would at least check it out as a new thing, though.

If you'd like to start a fight, you may start another thread for that -- I'd even be glad to get involved and throw a few zingers at you, assuming you present your own stance on what makes a good OS, so I don't attack strawmen...

-Chris
 
chulbert said:
On what information is your analysis based? Feel free to be as technical as you're capable of.

I believe Wudang has eliminated the need for a response. Thank you, Wudang -- I probably would have said a few choice words I'd later regret.
 
kevin said:
Excuse me?

Where does it state the problem is solely network speed?


Speaking of things I'd regret --

I have to apologize for my tone. When I reread his original post, you're right that it wasn't described as a network problem. I had jumped to a conclusion.

As it turned out, it was the right one, though -- most of my post was an attack on the Windows TCP/IP implementation and not on you. I regret the part that was. I feel like a heel for not reading more carefully.
 
scribble said:
I believe Wudang has eliminated the need for a response. Thank you, Wudang -- I probably would have said a few choice words I'd later regret.

No problem. I used to have an in-depth article on the TCP/IP stacks in NT and OS/2 which explained the performance difference I saw for them (OS/2 was about 20% faster) though a bit above my head. Again I'll recommend the excellent TCP/IP Tutorial and Technical Overview

My own grumble with linux is messing about with rpms - A won't install because it needs libB.6.2.1 and libC4.3.2 which also needs libZ2.1.1 which ....... I feel like I'm back using SMP on MVS in the early '80s which is not a comfortable feeling for me. WIBNI you could just select "install dependencies" and let it all happen? Like my tailored SMP system did on MVS in the mid-80s?
Feel free to put me in my place by telling me that there's a tool that does that. Really, please.
I use Linux on my main home PC because XP with SP2 and all current device drivers was as stable as a sex-starved paranoid schizo on bad acid.
 
Wudang said:
My own grumble with linux is messing about with rpms -

I'm in a hurry so I'll keep this short -- I use Debian and debian-based distros like Ubuntu, and have never even had a hint of this problem. I pick what I want to install, apt automatically takes care of getting any dependencies and resolving any conflicts for me. I have yet to have a single problem with it.

The tools I use in Debian are apt, which is the low-level package management tool, and aptitude, which is a ncurses-based graphical interface to same, and ocassionally synaptic or kynaptic, which are full-on gui versions of the same.

I'm told that apt and it's cohorts are available in Red Hat, but to be perfectly honest, I was under the impression that Red Hat's package system handled all those things as well... I just couldn't tell you how to do it.

I don't like Red Hat very much, but that's personal and not based on anything objective.

-Chris
 
Mandrake has it's own tool "urpmi" which is decent. I've still had a few problems with conflicting versions though. But it will download and install dependencies for you, which is a blessing: My current installation contains only a few (one or two) programs which I had to compile myself.

Disclaimer: I'm a paying mandrake customer, giving me access to some proprietary drivers and automatic updates. Dunno if it makes any difference for everyday software installs, but for OS installation it was is quite smooth.

ETA: My bad, it is actaully named Mandriva now since it merged with Conectiva.
 
ihaunter said:
Windows is generally easier to adjust, though it is more limited in what you can change.

How so?

So, basically what I am saying is, Linux isn't ready for the "average" user, but it is getting there. If you are willing to learn, give it a try.

Based on my own experience with Linux, I'd have to agree. I'm no computer novice, have been yanking them apart for over 15 years now. I remember thinking the graphical shell for DOS 4 was the cat's meow. Of all the DOS and Windows releases, the only one I've truly liked is XP (though Win2000 wasn't bad).

I've dabbled with Linux for awhile now. I've installed Red Hat 5.2, Caldera, Knoppix, and Beatrix, and played around with the live-CDs for Damn Small Linux, Mepis, SuSe, Feather, Ubuntu, Flonix, and Knoppix. Some have seemed better than others.

So far I've found Linux installations user unfriendly, but that's probably because I'm used to the Windows OS. That's probably unfair, because some of the live-CDs are quite impressive in their ability to correctly find and load drivers and network connections. However, anytime I have to drop out to a text box to install, configure, or modify something, regardless of the OS, it's forcing me to utilize more brain cells than I'd like. It might make you look like a magician to the average computer user when you're tooling about in DOS on a Win98 system, but it's not very practical for that user.

The "Live" CD distributions (Knoppix, Ubuntu, etc.) will only cost you download time and a CD-R, so they make good test drives as Scribble said. If you have an old PC lying around, or are willing to try it out on your main PC, try Red Hat's Fedora Core, Mandarake, or any of the many other distributions ( or "flavors" if you will) out there.

That's exactly what I did, installing Beatrix on a Pentium III. The installation went well, the system worked well, I had no major complaints as long as I didn't want to change anything. Maybe I'm just uber dense when it comes to Linux, but I had a devil of a time just finding out what my system specs were. I ended up formatting my drive and removing Beatrix, mainly because my kids wouldn't go near it. (Not enough games to hold their interest.)

I find a lot of the application names are less than intuitive too. Things like GIMP. Conjures up images alright -- of someone limping along with a cane maybe. Windows is somewhat unimaginative, but it seems more easily understood for the new user. MSN Messenger, and Paint for example, or even the dreaded Internet Explorer are kinda hard to misinterpret. (though I won't go near IE with a ten foot pole)

I do like the open source software approach, I just wish I didn't have to spend time learning stuff like apt-gets, tars, roots, and kernels.

In any case, I'll probably toss Beatrix back on my system after a couple months, just so I can play with it again.

RayG
 
Wudang said:
My own grumble with linux is messing about with rpms

Why are you using RPMS? There are usually better alternatives, depending on the distro that you're using. The two I'm most familar with are SuSE's YaST, which is a package management and system configuration tool, and while a bit bloated, is very effective. The other is Gentoo's emerge, simple command-line package-management tool. Debian also has a good tool, but I can't recall it off the top of my head.

Of course, if the software you want is only available via RPMS, or you're using RedHat, you're kinda screwed.
 
luchog said:
Of course, if the software you want is only available via RPMS, or you're using RedHat, you're kinda screwed.

I failed to mention, Mandrivas "urpmi" is RPM-based. I have no real doubt Apt or YaST are better, but then "urpmi" have worked surprisingly well for me.
 
I have tried using SUSE linux with a dual-boot to windows, but as my machine is primarily for games, I only used windows, so removed linux.

However, I do use several pieces of software that were originally written for Linux.

OpenOffice is a very good package, especially as, while most new PC's will come with windows bundled, MS Office still has to be bought and is very expensive compared to OO.

I also use GIMP as a considerably cheaper version of photoshop/illustrator.

Recently I needed some software for editing some mp3's. Googling revealed Audacity, another Linux product.

The one thing I couldn't find for Linux was a free DVD player, which I belive is due to copyrights on the decoding software.

Finally, I would recommend to everyone getting a copy of Knoppix, as it is great as a data recovery and troubleshooting device.
 
The one thing I couldn't find for Linux was a free DVD player, which I belive is due to copyrights on the decoding software.

Nothing to do with copyrights - that would imply it would be impossible to create another decoder without using copyrighted materials. The MPEG2 decoder algorithm is patented which means if you implement it then you have to pay the patent holder. Generally if you're not charging for your software then that makes things more difficult. Of course Windows doesn't come with an MPEG2 decoder either - most people don't realise this however because they'll probably have a CD of PowerDVD which DOES have the decoder and you DID pay for along with the PC. Install a fresh copy of WinXP and you'll be no more able to play DVDs then you can on a distro without the appropriate decoder.
 
Of the distro's I've used Debian and Gentoo have the best package management. I wouldn't recommend Gentoo to a beginner because installing from source is freaking slow, and there is still quite a bit of hand config necessary for Gentoo also.

Only issues I had with Debian was I wanted some more up-to-date packages then they had available and I thought Gentoo's documentation was better.

Haven't tried YaST but my dad likes SUSE Linux. He's got the only machine I've ever seen triple boot OS/2, Linux and Windows 2000.
 
cyborg said:
Nothing to do with copyrights - that would imply it would be impossible to create another decoder without using copyrighted materials. The MPEG2 decoder algorithm is patented which means if you implement it then you have to pay the patent holder.

DVD players need to have a decryption key to decrypt the movies on the DVD itself. These keys are licensed (not cheaply) by the DVD Copy Control Association.

DVD Jon cracked one of the encryption keys and released a program called DeCSS that decrypts DVDs for free. There are players available for Linux that use DeCSS to play DVD's for free. The legality of DeCSS, in Norway, was upheld (twice). However several cases in the US made it potentially illegal to link to DeCSS programs, so i'll let you find them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Johansen
 
Out of interest, I'll just mention BSD.
There are actually a few alternative home OSs to Windows, of which Linux is just the most widely-touted. I know more people who run FreeBSD than Linux, and for good reason: It's completely patent-free (unlike a lot of the comercial Linux distros), it's more stable and robust than Linux and it has an excellent Linux compatibility layer so most stuff you can run on one you can run on t'other :)
 
Since the original intent of the OP was to address new to linux users I do have a few questions.

I use curerntly a dual p4 machine I built with xp running versions of protools, cakewalk, and cubase.

I am now adding a mac 64 laptop with logic 7, protools and DP4 with two Presonus FIREBOX 8channel inputs for a giggable studio that I can record live shows with (usually 16 channel boards to take raw signal from)

I do alot of DAW intense composing, midi sequencing, multitrack recording, mixing and mastering.

What are my linux alternatives? Mind you the last time I even attempted a linux build on a laptop (or otherwise) was a dell 133mhz laptop and slackware linux circa 1996.

I appreciate how much has been done with linux since then, and learned quite a bit from this thread about software that wasn't there last time I looked at slackware and redhat, but are there ProTools/Cubase/Logic 7 alternatives available for linux as well?

rereading this, it sounds like a loaded troll question. It's not, I most assuredly do not have an agenda when it comes to Windows/OSX/Linux et all. If there's a viable open source solution for what I do, I would change over in a heartbeat.



ETA: Also, did someone hack out support for the iPod in linux yet? That would seal the deal with my other concerns.
 
Smike said:
I don't really know anything about sound editing/mixing/whatever but doing a quick google came up with this page:

http://www.opensound.com/ossapps.html

The broadcast software may be what you're looking for?

Personally, I have used another free program called audacity which works well at least for basic editing.

Wow, that's an impressive list there. I am glad the developing of these tools is there. The closest I can see to what I need is ProTUX, which looks like an adaptation of Protools, but from what I can tell, functionality is limited compared to what I currently use. I'll have to keep my eye open though, and see if any alternatives make a leap forward in development.

Thanks for the heads up!
 

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