• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Getting started with Linux

scribble

Master Poster
Joined
Nov 16, 2001
Messages
2,687
A lot of people are fed up with Windows but don't know where to turn. I'm going to offer some help for those of you bold enough to check out Linux.

Let me begin by explaining some of the important differences between Windows and Linux.

First off, there's no one thing that goes by the name "Linux" -- well, there is, but it's the operating system Kernel, which is a pretty technical concept. In a nutshell, the kernel is the heart and brains of an operating system. A kernel by itself, though, cannot interact directly with you, the user. You need more than that to have a whole operating system.

So when most people say "Linux" what they mean is any of a number of operating systems that are based on the Linux Kernel. Companies take the linux kernel, add all the other parts that are needed to make a full operating system, and then distribute the whole thing.

When I say the whole thing, it typically means a lot more than in Windows. If you come from a Windows system, you're used to buying a computer with Windows on it, then you have to buy a word processor to go with it, and maybe you need to buy photoshop if you're into that, or whatever... for each task you want to perform, you need to go out anfd purchase another program to do it.

In the Linux world, most of the Linux distributions have all the software you could ever want included, from word processors to photo editing software, media players, web browsers -- you name it, it's there. They can do this because they choose to include software that is free(*).

So -- maybe you're intrigued at this point. Well, there's one easy way to take Linux for a "Test Drive" without making a comittment to it. You can download Knoppix, which is a complete distribution of Linux that fits on a CD or a DVD. If your computer is set to boot off of the CD-ROM drive, and most are by default, then you just burn your own Knoppix CD or DVD, put it in the drive, and reboot.

Some important notes about running Knoppix off the CD, though, so your experience isn't a negative one.

Most operating systems will use more RAM than is physically present in your computer. Windows does this by taking a big chunk of your hard drive and setting it aside to use as extra RAM when your real RAM fills up. This is called "swap space". Linux typically does the same, but when you are running Knoppix, it's forbidden to write data to your hard drive, plus Linux needs a seperate partition for it's swap space, so there will be no swap space available to KNoppix, and you may notice this if you run out of RAM trying to run a bunch of programs at the same time. This will not be an issue if you decide to go with a full Linux installation.

Secondly, Knoppix uses some tricks to give itself an "imaginary" (virtual) hard drive -- it takes a big chuck of your already unusually limited RAM and uses it like a hard drive -- sort of like swap space in reverse. Rather than setting aside some hard drive space as extra RAM, it sets aside some RAM as hard drive space. This way it can run off the CD and be useful without touching your real hard disk. This will result in a reduced amount of RAM that is useable to you. I've run knoppix successfully on machines with 128mb of RAM, but it's pretty slow.

Which is the third things about KNoppix you shoudl knwo won't apply to a real Linux installation: Knoppix uses one extra trick of compressing the data in your RAM, so it can do all the above things and still be useable. Compressing and decompressing the data also slows things down a little.

Also, Knoppix is reading all it's data off your CD or DVD drive, which is much, much slower than your hard drive.

So when you are evaluating Knoppix, keep in mind that a real install will be several orders of magnitude faster. In just about any speed test I've been able to devise, a real Linux install beats Windows.

So what are you waiting for? Give it a whirl!

http://www.knoppix.org/

(* Avoiding the discussion of what kind of Free I mean for now)
 
Linux Advocate, Pt. 2

Here are some Linux applications I couldn't live without:

Amarok

This is the ultimate MP3 and other audio player. Why do I love it? I can take all my MP3s, throw them into a directory, and then have Amarok read them into its database. At that point, I can tell Amarok to go fetch all the album covers for all my music -- which is does by grabbing them off of Amazon's advertisements for the relevant albums. These album covers are then displayed when the songs off the albums are playing, as nice eye-candy, and more. Click on it and I can get the album info from Amazon or another source. Even better, there's a tab in Amarok for the lyrics of the song I am listening to. It works like magic; Amarok is able to grabt he lyrics for every song in my collection off the internet in case I want to sing along. Plus, it connects to AudioScrobbler, so while I am listening, I can ask it to suggest what other songs in my collection might suit my mood.

http://amarok.kde.org/

OpenOffice

This is a "clone" of Microsoft's Office suite, but it is free, and has more functionality than MS Office does. I cant' go on about it's features in as much depth, becuase I don't often use it, except when I find word documents or excel spreadsheets I need to view.

http://www.openoffice.org/
http://www.openoffice.org/dev_docs/source/features.html

AbiWord

This is a word processor which I use primarily because it reads Word documents, and it loads much faster than OpenOffice.

http://www.abisource.com/
http://www.abisource.com/screenshots/

MythTV

With my $60 Hauppauge card and MythTV, I can do some incredible things -- good for me since I have no television. In my opinion, it beats my old Tivo, hands-down.

http://www.mythtv.org/
http://www.mythtv.org/modules.php?name=MythFeatures

Gwenview

Okay, guys... I know you use ACDSee on Windows, and I know it's not for viewing the family photo album, either. this is a ACDSee "clone" for Linux. 'Nuff said.

http://gwenview.sourceforge.net/
http://gwenview.sourceforge.net/aeg?album=/1.3

Konqueror

The finest web browser I have ever used. It's also a file explorer and other things, much like Internet Explorer is on Windows. Konqueror has ruined me for many other browsers -- for instance, to search google on Konqueror, I can type "gg:stuff to search for" in the address bar. To find the entry on Linu on Wikipedia, I can put in "wp:linux" and it'll take me right there. Doesn't sound like much of a feature, but it's ruined me for other browsers. Plus, Konqueror's engine, KHTML, is the same engine that drives Apple's Safari (with some tweaks).

http://www.konqueror.org/
http://www.konqueror.org/features/browser.php

Evolution

Even the magic 8-ball knows, "Outlook not so good." Well, you'll never want for Outlook with this excellent integrated email, calendar and contact management system.

http://www.gnome.org/projects/evolution/


All of the above programs are included in most major Linux distributions.
 
I use Windows at home, but I happily support the use of Linux. Nonetheless, I'll be happy to play Devil's Advocate here.

Knoppix is undoubtedly useful. No more so than Bart PE, but useful nonetheless. It gives people a taste of Linux.

To examine further points, though:
That Open Office is better than MS Office is laughable. It's beyond laughable. I put it on our internet machines, but to put it on our users' machines would lead to uproar. Apart from the 'native' ability to write pdf, how does OO beat MSO? I'd be genuinely interested to hear, as it would save the company for which I work hundreds every year.

We cannot sensibly run AutoCAD on our 100+ machines under Linux. What do you suggest instead? For a Freehand replacement (which I would be genuinely pleased to hear of) what is there?

Cheers,
Rat.
 
Rat said:
I use Windows at home, but I happily support the use of Linux. Nonetheless, I'll be happy to play Devil's Advocate here.


I'm not sure it's necessary -- The Devil (Windows) gets plenty of advocacy already. I welcome complaints -- but you aren't looking at this from the same perspective that I am offering it.

Knoppix is undoubtedly useful. No more so than Bart PE, but useful nonetheless. It gives people a taste of Linux.

Which is why I've started by recommending it. I'll follow this up with some information on installing Red hat or Ubuntu if anyone shows interest.

To examine further points, though:
That Open Office is better than MS Office is laughable. It's beyond laughable. I put it on our internet machines, but to put it on our users' machines would lead to uproar. Apart from the 'native' ability to write pdf, how does OO beat MSO? I'd be genuinely interested to hear, as it would save the company for which I work hundreds every year.

I've admitted I'm nto a power user of these applications. The native ability to write a PDF is *exactly* the feature I had in mind when I wrote that it is a better program. I'd welcome you to explain to me how it is lacking.

What does it mean that you put it on your internet machines but not on your users' machines? What possible purpose could Openoffice serve on a server?

We cannot sensibly run AutoCAD on our 100+ machines under Linux. What do you suggest instead?

Running Windows? My suggestions above are to help someone who's thinking about switching decide whether it's in fact a viable alternative for them. For you it may not be. To be honest, I'm not familiar with any CAD packages for Linux, although I know they exist. I welcome you to do a search and see how they work out for you.

Also, I'd intended to address this to an audience of home users. Anyone who is responsible for a 100-machine drafting network presumably knows enough to evaluate Linux for himself.

For a Freehand replacement (which I would be genuinely pleased to hear of) what is there?

I don't even know what Freehand is -- but I'm going to cheat and look it up.

Ah - well, I'm (thank GOD) not a Web Designer... so I'm not sure exactly what's available there or how the products differentiate themselves. I do know many such products exist for linux, though -- it's popular with the few web designers I'll deign to speak with.

-Chris
 
After trying a number of Linux live-CD's (Damn Small Linux, Ubuntu, Knoppix, Mepis...etc. etc.) I settled on Beatrix.

http://www.watsky.net/

I have four systems connected to the net 24/7, three running Win XP and the one running Beatrix. I've been running the Beatrix for most of the summer, but have found it more frustrating than Windows for doing some of the 'under the hood' stuff.

Until Linux becomes as easy to tweak as XP, I'll stick with XP.

RayG
 
If I wasnt using my home computer for gaming I would use Linux instead of Windows, mostly because its cheaper.
 
Until Linux becomes as easy to tweak as XP, I'll stick with XP.

This is one of the things that is keeping Linux from becoming mainstream. Windows is generally easier to adjust, though it is more limited in what you can change. There is virtually no limit to how much you can tweak most Linux distributions, but most of the changes require a bit more then the average computer user can do. Great strides have been made in the latest distibutions, but it is not quite there yet.
I've been having trouble getting my 5 button trackball to use the extra buttons in Fedora Core 3. I can't get the imwheel program to work. XP had no problem recognizing it. Let's face it, most hardware and software developers target Windows and/or Macs when providing drivers or whatever is needed for compliance. But many companies are starting to recognize Linux and provide for it as necessary, as well as the Linux community providing the solutions to get things working.
So, basically what I am saying is, Linux isn't ready for the "average" user, but it is getting there. If you are willing to learn, give it a try. The "Live" CD distributions (Knoppix, Ubuntu, etc.) will only cost you download time and a CD-R, so they make good test drives as Scribble said. If you have an old PC lying around, or are willing to try it out on your main PC, try Red Hat's Fedora Core, Mandarake, or any of the many other distributions ( or "flavors" if you will) out there. There are even instructions on setting up a PC so that you can have both Windows and Linux on the same PC, and you can choose which you want each time you boot up. But that can be somewhat involved, and I believe XP can be problematic in that setup.
 
I'd like to make a comment. I am a long time user of Linux/Windows/DOS/BSD/SunOS/etc though I'm certainly not a power user of "office" applications.

Rat said:
That Open Office is better than MS Office is laughable. It's beyond laughable. I put it on our internet machines, but to put it on our users' machines would lead to uproar. Apart from the 'native' ability to write pdf, how does OO beat MSO? I'd be genuinely interested to hear, as it would save the company for which I work hundreds every year.
[/B]

Well, OOo reads and writes MSO files, though support is not 100% (eg, Word documents often end up with screwy bullet points and numbering). Sound bad? MSO doesn't support OOo files at all. If you check the list of supported files, MSO is sadly lacking, especially in the PDF department as previously indicated. OOo file support is constanly being improved, and I am confident it will get there with the proprietry formats in the end.
OOo promotes the use of open document formats. This is a good thing for everyone.

OOo is multi-platform. The last MSO I saw looked completely different on a Mac to how it appeared on a PC, and you couldn't run it on *nix at all (Though Things May Have Changed) All of which means your user can happily write a document on their Linux machine at home and edit it on their friend's Unix box and then print it out from their work's Windows PC without worrying about any discrepancies. This makes it a better product.
Just because the big area where OOo needs improvement is its compatibility with MS's closed formats does not make it the lesser suite.

Incidentally, there's also OpenWorkbench now, which does what MS Project does, only cheaper. According to their homepage stats, they're currently $21,137,400 cheaper - though that's misleading in some fairly obvious ways :)

I've been happy to use OOo on my machine for a while now. In contrast, what are your issues with it?

Rat said:
We cannot sensibly run AutoCAD on our 100+ machines under Linux. What do you suggest instead? For a Freehand replacement (which I would be genuinely pleased to hear of) what is there?

Cheers,
Rat. [/B]

I'm dimly aware that there's a LOT of CAD software for Linux. But CAD never interested me, so I won't comment helpfully :)
 
My old (circa 1998; 333 Mhz) computer recently died ("bad sectors" in the system area). My wife was using it for internet and word processing, so it had files I needed to get off of it. I had a boot disk, but some of the files were larger than 1.4 mb. I don't know what made me think of using Knoppix as a "rescue" disk, but I downloaded an iso and burned a CD.

I danced for joy when it automatically found all my hardware and network. I was able to just grab the files from my other computer.
 
scribble said:
Running Windows? My suggestions above are to help someone who's thinking about switching decide whether it's in fact a viable alternative for them. For you it may not be. To be honest, I'm not familiar with any CAD packages for Linux, although I know they exist. I welcome you to do a search and see how they work out for you.

There are no free or fee-based CAD programs available for Linux that offer the capabilities of AutoCAD (or the CAD program I support Microstation).

Not all users of AutoCAD use all the capabilities so it's very possible that some CAD users can move to Linux much easier. ALthough interoperating with someone that does use AutoCAD may make the move more difficult.

Also, Ghostscript can be installed on Windows and provide the ability to create PDF straight from Office products. I wouldn't base my switch to a new OS on one feature (and I should point out that Mac OS X provides this ability natively as well for ALL applications).

This does not mean I'm against Linux. Quite the contrary in fact. I have two linux boxes at home (used as servers though, not desktop machines, I prefer Mac OS X for desktop use.) I think Linux is an excellent OS for home users where most usage is e-mail and web browsing and simple homework document creation. Businesses that find acceptable cross-products (or products that work under WINE) should evaluate it very seriously.

Here are some other products people may find interesting:

Scribus - Quark Xpress/InDesign competitor http://www.scribus.org.uk/

Inkscape - Illustrator/Freehand/Corel Draw competitor http://www.inkscape.org/

GIMP - Photoshop/Corel Photopaint competitor. http://www.gimp.org/

Are each of these products full blown competition for the propriatary product? Probably not (GIMP's been around the longest and may be the closest) but many people don't use the full capabilities of their propriatary solution anyway. Evaluation should be done to determine suiatability.
 
I use both Linux at home and Windows at work. I fell in love with Linux about eight years ago and it is my system of choice at home. (Although I'm using the XP partition on this machine right now.)

I am probably not your average user and I certainly did struggle with Linux at first. Those struggles were often related to incompatibilty and have mostly disappeared now. The most recent install of the current Mandrake (Mandriva?) allows me to do everything I want. Use the WWW and email. Manage my digital camera images (Digikam) . Manipulate the images with Gimp. Create documents with text editors, word processors, desktop publisher (Scribus) or my favourite, LyX. (Attention students: LyX is the best kept secret in the computer world. It is a document processor that will make you look like a genius.) I like to rip and burn MP3s to CD to use in my car so I use Grip, LAME and K3B.

On the other hand if I boot to XP I often find myself struggling to acomplish these tasks. I have to track down and load software. Much of which is of poor quality or expensive. Even after it is loaded I often find that I have to futz around to get things to work properly. Not just at home but also at work. I get very frustrated with Windows and find it hard to just use. When it is working it's fine. It just seems that it frequently doesn't work right. Oddly, after our IT guy I'm the computer guru at work.

One startling thing I have noticed when comparing the two is that I run Firefox on both partitions and yet Windows seems downright slow compared to Linux. File downloads are slower. Web pages load more slowly. Music playback somtimes stutters which something I never encounter on Linux even though I run more applications simultaneously.

I am often asked to show people Linux and I will start it up and then start launching all the applications as quickly as I can click the mouse. Then watch the look on their face as they seem to fully expect it to lock up at any moment.

Once a system is set up with Linux it just works the same way each and every time. You can just do what it is you do without any fuss.

It gets two thumbs up from me.
 
jimlintott said:
One startling thing I have noticed when comparing the two is that I run Firefox on both partitions and yet Windows seems downright slow compared to Linux. File downloads are slower. Web pages load more slowly. Music playback somtimes stutters which something I never encounter on Linux even though I run more applications simultaneously.

This is almost always a sign of insufficient memory. Linux runs much better in low memory situations than Windows does. I wouldn't run XP with less than 512MB memory, and I prefer putting 1GB in all my machines these days.

You can try defragging the Windows partition, but memory would be my bet.
 
kevin said:
This is almost always a sign of insufficient memory. Linux runs much better in low memory situations than Windows does. I wouldn't run XP with less than 512MB memory, and I prefer putting 1GB in all my machines these days.

You can try defragging the Windows partition, but memory would be my bet.

BS.

It's windows crappy TCP/IP stack and their crufty networking model. I have two machines, each with *at least* 512mb of ram, and Linux gets networking speeds a full 25% faster than Windows in some cases -- faster to some degree in ALL cases.

DEFRAGGING to increase NETWORK speed? You'd do as well shaking a human thighbone over the hard disk and chanting a voodoo spell.

Excuse me if I sound angry. Got two hours of sleep thanks towork.


-Chris
 
scribble said:
BS.

It's windows crappy TCP/IP stack and their crufty networking model. I have two machines, each with *at least* 512mb of ram, and Linux gets networking speeds a full 25% faster than Windows in some cases -- faster to some degree in ALL cases.

DEFRAGGING to increase NETWORK speed? You'd do as well shaking a human thighbone over the hard disk and chanting a voodoo spell.

Excuse me if I sound angry. Got two hours of sleep thanks towork.


-Chris

Excuse me?

Where does it state the problem is solely network speed?

File downloads are slower. Web pages load more slowly. Music playback somtimes stutters which something I never encounter on Linux even though I run more applications simultaneously.

File downloads are downloaded to DISK . Web pages are cached to DISK. Music playback is usually from FILES not just streaming. I didn't propose defragging as a guaranteed solution -- just something to test.

YOU have 512MB of memory, this person did not indicate how much he/she has. Until this is known low memory situations are very possible -- and are a HUGE cause of machine slowness, especially for windows.

And the indication of running multiple applications simultaneously points towards memory swapping issue - something Windows is particularly horrible at, compared to Linux. And is fixed by making more real memory available to Windows. Defragging also helps windows swapping by making the swap file contiguous. Fragmented swap files (something else Linux doesn't usually get) are terrible performance killers.

After memory shortages and defragging (something that can be tested at no cost to the user) then you can move on to other possible causes.

In my experience the TCP/IP stack issue in Windows vs. Linux don't come into play once you leave the LAN. The bandwidth available is just too small to be affected that greatly by the stack.
 
I would definitely debate Konqueror being the best browser ever. My experience is that it's clunky and fairly primitive. Not as bad as Firefox, and light years beyond IE; but compared to Opera, it's still lacking. There are no features I'm aware of that Konqueror has that Opera does not, often in much more advanced forms (tabbed-browsing navigation is far superior to Konqueror and Firefox); and it is more customizable.

Plus, it has the advantage of being available for every major platform, and a huge number of smaller ones, which makes standardization easier if you're running a mixed-platform shop.

The only thing it doesn't do is proprietary JS/Java/Active-X; but IIRC neither does Konqueror; and Active-X is a security nightmare.
 
After memory shortages and defragging (something that can be tested at no cost to the user) then you can move on to other possible causes.

The machine has 512 megs of ram. The install of XP is less than a month old and has very little use.

When I say file downloads are slow I mean the actual data rate reported. The Linux partition actually will test faster on speed tests than Windows (fully tweaked for mtu, etc). So I think that it is likely a crappy TCP/IP stack and poor memory management.

It's an easy fix though. I just choose Linux off of the LILO boot menu. I use Windows for games.
 
While emotionally pro Linux (or rather anti-monolithic monopoly), the fact is that I have to use Windows at work.
I never had any training in computers whatsoever and life is just too short to learn the quirks of another OS.

I have had two Linux installations on home PCs, but I end up going back to Windows because I don't have the time to mess about with it.

I suspect this is a very common tale.
 
You're talking about kernels by the third paragraph, arguably the first paragraph of actual content. By the end, you've touched on swap space, RAM disks and data compression. The last half of your article is mere mitigation of how much it's going to suck running an operating system off a CD.

This is why you're never going to take the desktop market.
 
scribble said:
It's windows crappy TCP/IP stack and their crufty networking model.
On what information is your analysis based? Feel free to be as technical as you're capable of.
 

Back
Top Bottom