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General UK politics VIII - The Last Tory

As someone who if in the UK would be tempted by the Lib Dems, more and More I think their alliance wiht the Tories was a catastrphic error.

I think it was the best thing they could do at the time. The country was in economic crisis and the Conservatives were the only party with a realistic chance of forming a government. I think the Lib Dems probably had to step up to the plate and I think they had a moderating influence between 2010 and 2015. The wheels were pretty wobbly, but they didn't fall off until Cameron decided he had to have a referendum.
 
Jimbob said (see prior thread):



Exactly. This is an important point, when the current system means an MP literally represents his or her constituents. So you have MP's from deprived areas representing the interests of that area in the House whilst the rich landowners have theirs. The true problem is population density. The poorer areas tend to be crammed chocablock with people per square mile, which means one constituency with 26,000 people living cheek by jowl has the same representation in parliament as a couple of thousand people spread out over a leafy county sipping at their ice cold beer lazing about in their mansions.

Of course, should there be PR then the opposite problem occurs, so you have the unwashed masses having the most representation, because there are many more of them, whilst great swathes of the country area-wise (for example farmers) have their interests suddenly at the mercy of the populists.

We have PR here in Finland and whilst the north still tends to vote Centre Party (used to be the agricultural party), of course, the urban centres, where more than 25% of the population live tend to the liberal-conservative right, at least recently. So the governments tend to be coalitions because with five or more parties, it is rare to get a full majority. So ATM we have the conservatives sharing power with the far right Basic Finns (think UKIP), even though this sector inhabits a small area by size (big cities and suburbs).


Whilst I think coalition parties work well, proportional representation is not necessarily the answer to the problem of ensuring everybody is represented fairly, or even that your part of the country has a vocal say in the Commons.

Apart from the fact that the constituencies are constantly being tweaked to try to keep them more or less the same size in terms of population (as lots of others have already pointed out), there's another issue that you are overlooking.

Almost every constituency will be won by a candidate who is a member of a major political party (or limited company in the case of Reform ltd). Almost every voter will vote for that candidate because he or she is a member of that party. Once in parliament, the election winner will be pretty much bound by the party's policies and will vote for them even if they are detrimental to their constituents.

The reality is that most voters will be voting for a particular candidate solely because they want that candidate's party to form the government (or some other party's candidate not to form the government). Given this is the case, I think the voting system ought to reflect that.

The only way to make FPTP "fair" is to weaken party influence and strengthen constituency influence. You could, for example, make it illegal for parliamentary parties to whip their MPs or you could make it possible for constituencies to recall MPs for policy reasons.
 
I think it was the best thing they could do at the time. The country was in economic crisis and the Conservatives were the only party with a realistic chance of forming a government. I think the Lib Dems probably had to step up to the plate and I think they had a moderating influence between 2010 and 2015. The wheels were pretty wobbly, but they didn't fall off until Cameron decided he had to have a referendum.

Stepping up was fair enough, it was two key things after that: Clegg reneging on his promise not to increase tuition fees (even if he'd abstained it may have been forgivable but he voted for it); general submissiveness to and being outmaneuvered by the Tories - it became a standing joke that every time there was bad news to deliver a LibDem spoke-person was wheeled out and any time there was good news, A Tory was wheeled out. The latter convinced people that they may be well meaning but they were clearly too gullible to form a Government.

The sad thing is, when you ask people what they want / believe in, the LibDems should have huge support but they never seem to be able to exploit that when it comes to actual votes. Doesn't help when the media give more attention to Farage / Reform who has just 1 seat and that a defection rather than an actual elected representative.
 
Stepping up was fair enough, it was two key things after that: Clegg reneging on his promise not to increase tuition fees (even if he'd abstained it may have been forgivable but he voted for it); general submissiveness to and being outmaneuvered by the Tories - it became a standing joke that every time there was bad news to deliver a LibDem spoke-person was wheeled out and any time there was good news, A Tory was wheeled out. The latter convinced people that they may be well meaning but they were clearly too gullible to form a Government.

The sad thing is, when you ask people what they want / believe in, the LibDems should have huge support but they never seem to be able to exploit that when it comes to actual votes. Doesn't help when the media give more attention to Farage / Reform who has just 1 seat and that a defection rather than an actual elected representative.
Indeed; I think a large part of the problem is media bias, and also the fact that reasonable evidence-based policies don't make such good copy as populist and extreme ones.
 
Stepping up was fair enough, it was two key things after that: Clegg reneging on his promise not to increase tuition fees (even if he'd abstained it may have been forgivable but he voted for it); general submissiveness to and being outmaneuvered by the Tories - it became a standing joke that every time there was bad news to deliver a LibDem spoke-person was wheeled out and any time there was good news, A Tory was wheeled out. The latter convinced people that they may be well meaning but they were clearly too gullible to form a Government.

In Clegg's position, I would have pointed out that the electorate rejected his manifesto and the promises in it.

The Lib-Dems were very much the junior party in the coalition, so they were always going to be "outmanoeuvred" in some respect and the overall "flavour" was a Tory government. Even now, people are talking about "14 years of Tory chaos" forgetting that it includes five years of a coalition.

I'm not saying it went well for the Lib-Dems, but we judge them too harshly for the coalition IMO.

The sad thing is, when you ask people what they want / believe in, the LibDems should have huge support but they never seem to be able to exploit that when it comes to actual votes. Doesn't help when the media give more attention to Farage / Reform who has just 1 seat and that a defection rather than an actual elected representative.

Since 2015, I have always supported the Lib-Dems, mainly on account of their policy towards Europe. Their lack of penetration is a problem of our electoral system and it is oner of the reasons it needs to be reformed.

ETA: I agree that Farage is largely a media phenomenon. The media like a story, not a list of effective but boring policies.
 
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In Clegg's position, I would have pointed out that the electorate rejected his manifesto and the promises in it.

The Lib-Dems were very much the junior party in the coalition, so they were always going to be "outmanoeuvred" in some respect and the overall "flavour" was a Tory government. Even now, people are talking about "14 years of Tory chaos" forgetting that it includes five years of a coalition.

I'm not saying it went well for the Lib-Dems, but we judge them too harshly for the coalition IMO.



Since 2015, I have always supported the Lib-Dems, mainly on account of their policy towards Europe. Their lack of penetration is a problem of our electoral system and it is oner of the reasons it needs to be reformed.

ETA: I agree that Farage is largely a media phenomenon. The media like a story, not a list of effective but boring policies.

Yeah, I agree with most if not all of that.
 
Apart from the fact that the constituencies are constantly being tweaked to try to keep them more or less the same size in terms of population (as lots of others have already pointed out), there's another issue that you are overlooking.

Almost every constituency will be won by a candidate who is a member of a major political party (or limited company in the case of Reform ltd). Almost every voter will vote for that candidate because he or she is a member of that party. Once in parliament, the election winner will be pretty much bound by the party's policies and will vote for them even if they are detrimental to their constituents.

The reality is that most voters will be voting for a particular candidate solely because they want that candidate's party to form the government (or some other party's candidate not to form the government). Given this is the case, I think the voting system ought to reflect that.

The only way to make FPTP "fair" is to weaken party influence and strengthen constituency influence. You could, for example, make it illegal for parliamentary parties to whip their MPs or you could make it possible for constituencies to recall MPs for policy reasons.

There is so much wrong with the system, especially when candidates are parachuted into safe seats and likely know very little about the area. Having experienced both the UK and the Finnish system (where we usually have four or five parties in coalition, three of them with a minor role) the problem with PR is that if you are a serious voter you have to study each candidate carefully, and it thus becomes a battle of personalities and popularity. After each election, my local paper is more interested in how many of the successful candidates come from my region (this time round, he is now the PM), then in the EU recent elections, everyone around here is cockahoop because Left winger, Li Andersson achieved a record vote because she happens to be local. I do like Li but she gets the votes because she is a very well-known face and it is only incidental that she is actually a great choice. But her party, the Left, rarely does well in General Elections, with the SDP having the centre left vote (as was former PM, Sanna Marin). However, in the UK, at least the average person not interested in politics can simply turn up and put a cross against which party they prefer without having to do too much research on the candidate themself. The danger with PR is you're so terrified of picking someone who is likely not going to get many votes as a newbie unknown, you end up voting for one of the prominent public figures instead of their policies or their party. It's a hard call whichever electoral system is used. STV works well when there are multiple candidates as in previous London Mayoral elections, to trim it down to the last two or three, but England as a whole is really a two-party state with perhaps the Lib Dems getting the rare look in (Wales, Scotland and Ireland having their own separate issues).
 
Oh the Irony.
Sir Geoff Cox on BBC politics live saying that Politicians can never take time off, when he's been out living in a tax haven miles from his constituents, whose letters piled up on the mat of his locked Tavistock office.
 
Reform reaction to the candidate pulling out is that she was a plant to stir up trouble for he party.

The BBC should be defunded for reporting it and are probably part of the plot.

"She was a plant..."
"The audience members were a plant..."
"The volunteer was a plant..."


I see a pattern.
 
Reform reaction to the candidate pulling out is that she was a plant to stir up trouble for he party.

The BBC should be defunded for reporting it and are probably part of the plot.

"She was a plant..."
"The audience members were a plant..."
"The volunteer was a plant..."


I see a pattern.

It would be nice if you posted links to your stories.
 
It would be nice if you posted links to your stories.

My overview of the general tone of Reform supporting posters on Twitter. How many should I link to?

Here's one from Tice blaming the Tories for the defecting candidates and those saying racist things.

Just some of our wonderful Reform candidates

Desperate toxic Tories sent us some Trojan horse candidates by offering jobs, safe council seats etc to spread lies.

Their corruption will rightly be punished by voters on July 4

Many millions will vote Reform for change

https://x.com/MayuranReform/status/1805214286207152288/video/1

https://x.com/TiceRichard/status/1808081905797287987
 
Enoch Powell forecasted Palestine flags in core London enclaves.

I'll re-iterate what Zooterkin said in #89: evidence please for him saying that; define "core enclaves".

You do realise that citing Powewll as if he was a reasonable, credible source helps you even less than your clear Farageophilia (Powell was the MP for the part of Wolverhampton my dad was born and grew up in and was adept at playing racist cards to bolster his local position in a constituency with a sizeable population of Afro-Caribbean and south Asian backgrounds)?
 
The latest fluff from the Tories that Starmer would be a 'part time PM' because he would try to spend Friday nights with his family, while knowing that isn't always possible really does smack of utter desperation. Oh and having warned about a Labour 'supermajority' Sunak now claims he still thinks he can win.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c6p2l1ln7nno
 
Because the Tories didn't all sit around drinking in the garden of Number 10 or go on extended, paid for by mysterious donors foreign holidays four or five times a year.
 

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