Gasland’s Fracking Nonsense

Comparing fracking to other wells I think is a dodge...the pressure to fracture the formations is enormous. This has to be a weak point for damage to the well casing....which may indeed not show for years.

I have my sympathies for the PA situation - times are tough and the income is welcome but it's destroying the wilderness which is a huge draw from all over the US especially the North East where there is little left.

It's a big time mcycle draw and the state welcomes us. But I tell you driving by those rigs is nauseating.

And finding a motel room in some remote areas is impossible as the well teams have them locked up.

Then they will leave and as you point out the state is not getting the profits and yet has to deal with the damage.

I'm sure there are some royalties but .......
 
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I didn't know there was anything to ask. I just assumed, and took my assumption at face value,
OK then, your assumptions were incorrect, hopefully some of my explanations have helped.
that if they are using chemicals to break apart the rock, then it would make sense those chemicals would end up in the water table, and the groundwater.
Not really. In the PA instance, the deepest part of the aquifer is at 500ft. The PA shales are at 5,000ft and isolated from the wellbore by a number of casings and nearly a mile of other rock formations. The argument that fraccing extends 4,500ft is just wrong. Also, it makes no sense to frac a formation so that the fluids you're after migrate away from your producing wellbore. The point is to get the fluids to drain into your wellbore so that you can produce it to surface.
Oh, I knew it wasn't used for initially creating the well bore. I always thought it was used for breaking apart some of the shale in order to get to the gas. I should probably read that wiki article completely and thoroughly.

What is the other 1%? I know that if you were to compose a cupful of water that contains 1% arsenic, it will kill you straightaway. 1% out of thousands upon thousands of gallons of water is a lot of chemicals that can do quite a bit of harm.
But since it is not migrating into the groundwater not an issue. What IS an issue is surface disposal and containment. If this is inadequate you will get water contaminiation and practically all of the incidents that have been brought forward here are just such incidencts. Loss of containment of fraccing and produced fluid at surface.
lol, you don't need to tell me! I had to search around pretty extensively, and ran across a PDF that was a report on chemicals found in some of the groundwater that was tested. Unforuntely, I couldn't d/l the PDF. My computer got hung-up, and crashed. I'll try again later, and link ya when I reach my 15 posts.

The pamphlet wasn't anywhere on the internet. I physically held it in my hands. They were handing these things out like candy up in Rickett's Glen this past June, though. (You ever get a chance to come to PA, I HIGHLY, HIGHLY, HIGHLY suggest you go to Ricket's Glen, btw!)

I'll continue my search for exact specifications, since you are asking. I'll take a few days, maybe a week or so to gather some materials if you wish. But my hypothesis using common sense, is that any chemicals found in some of those waterways way out there in the deep wilderness is from fracking fluids. I know the waters in the PCV was perfectly fine for more than twenty years. And like I said, there isn't any real agriculture or human habitation in some of these areas. Particularly further west. The only conclusion I can think of where these chemicals (which didn't seem to exist before the discovery of the Macellus Shale) comes from, is the fracking.
I can't deny that they do not. But at the moment we don't know. Certainly the few reports I've read (except for that specific one in Dimock) have pointed to methane in water being generated within the aquifer itself and other contaminations by surface spills.
It was pretty facetious. There are more than just three incidents of note, of course. :)

Any specific reasons why some of these "surface spills" should not migrate to the water table, and hence on into the aquifers?
No. Of the reports I have read it is the surface spills that are the problem and the source of contamination.
The leak in Lyco County, one of the incidents that I talked a bit about, was just that: A leak. It wasn't a surface spill, per se. And we were given a "water advisory" which lasted a couple of weeks. I can only assume with the advisory that it must have entered, or was in danger of entering, the area's water supply.
It was a surface spill. The account I read said that a valvle on a storage tank was left open and produced water leaked from the system instead of going into the surface storage tank. It was not frac fluid flow back as originally reported.
And one operator is all it takes to completely destroy the local environment. And this is not the only incident either, unfortunately.
The BP GoM well is testament to that, even in the perspective of 32,000 odd wells being drilled last year in the US.
How do you know?
Mostly through geology. The aquifers at 500ft are isolated from the oil/gas reservoirs at 5,000ft by (literally) tons of impervious rock. Fraccing just does not extend this far. Now not everything is cut and dried in the natural world, there is the possibility of migration through natural faults that may be opened up by deep formation fraccing. But I've never read of this being and issue in PA, or with th 10s of 1000s of wells that have undergone frac jobs in the past decades.
Even if you are correct, the aquifers aren't the only thing of concern here. The Delaware river is the most endangered river in North America. It is absolutely filthy. And the pollution reaching the Chesapeake Bay has much more far-reaching effects than just the local areas. The Chesapeake Bay affects literally millions of people, and the economies of 5 states, and several fishing industries.
A different issue to aquifer contamination by fraccing, but a concern that should not be overlooked, and it applies to agriculture, industry, mining and even residential waste.
Yeah, and Macondo was the man-made environmental disaster I can think of. Worse even than Exxon-Valdez. A blow-out is only one danger we have to contend with out of a myriad others.

Then why have they been happening in Pa, then? I'll have to find the exact numbers, but it seems to happen on a far too regular basis around here.
I think that this may also be a misunderstanding of what is being reported. I'd be interested to know if there are more well failures in PA than "normal", which are very few indeed.
Lucky for us, we are not nearly as dry as Australia.
Conversely, there is much more drilling activity, so more potential burden on your aquifers.
But still, the price of water on the utility bill has been on the rise.
Other concerns relate to the wear-and-tear of the roads that are paid for by the state tax payers....
Always a problem when a new industry starts up in a region and I'd be pretty pissed if I lived there.
And still others are the unsightliness of once-peaceful and beautiful areas that people purposely moved into because of the natural beauty. The loudness of the operations. In Dimock, for example, Haliburton or one of them companies just came and plopped like 30 big trucks, started drilling, which is a very loud process, and transporting dangerous chemicals, mere yards from people's homes with children. They planted a drill directly between two homes in one video.
... and were only did this to because the local or state authority allowed it.
I don't claim to know the answer, either. Which is why there are protests going on in Harrisburgh fairly often these days. The sad thing is, these large companies are from Texas. They bring their workers with them from Texas. And transfer their profits back to Texas. Basically, Texas is coming into Pennsylvania, tearing apart this state, and our state budget is STILL in the red with the worst roads on the East Coast. I honestly have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, but I smell a rat in all of this. :mad:
Usually round about now the argument turns to accussation of NIMBYism, but frankly, I'd be on the side of the NIMBYs.
Heh, and what they do with the cash they are supposedly taking, God only knows. As stated above, the roads are in terrible repair. It feels like you are driving along in an African safari, only with vehicles that cannot take the punishment and not built for such a terrible bumpy ride. The education system in this state ranks about 28th in the nation. And the state budget is still in the red. All of these, despite the fact that the state has pretty much done away with most gambling laws, which was supposedly to cause huge cash infusion into the state coffers as well. Between gambling and drilling profits, roads that are not being maintained, and the education system not up to par, something is most definitely wrong.
Sounds like you've got more problems than just the shale gas drilling.
 
Comparing fracking to other wells I think is a dodge...
Only if you persist in misunderstanding your own statement. Fracced wells are built no differently than regular wells. They start at the top and drill down into the ground, they all may have to drill through a shallow aquifer. It is NOT this part of the process that could contaminate the aquifer with fluids associated with frac jobs.
the pressure to fracture the formations is enormous. This has to be a weak point for damage to the well casing....
Actually, the weak point would be the cement between the wellbore and the casing. Sorry, but your assumption on well design is wrong. It may sound like a logical argument, but engineers have spent decades working on well designs and frankly know much more about it than a few lines on a Forum. Most wells are designed with a 15 year life. You're barking up the wrong tree on the casing integrity argument.
which may indeed not show for years.
This is merely speculation and it runs against the fact that 10s of 1000s of wells have undergone frac jobs over the past decade(s) and casing integrity has not been a major issue beyond regular well design life.
 
It's like any of these industries, they have lots of expensive lawyers and paid experts that will delay any action or investigation until they have made their money, closed their wells and left someone else to clear up the mess.
 
Let me attempt to summarise my "argument" here.

I think that by concentrating on the practically non-issue of well integrity the bigger picture of by-products is being overlooked.

Wastewater and its disposal is the problem.

There are some 71,000 active gas wells in Pennsylvania. Each of these has the potential to consume 1 million gallons of water during their operation. Firstly, that waster is going to be drawn from the state's aquifer. Secondly there is the disposal issue. For the majority of it, it is disposed at sewerage plants that probably don't have the capacity to cope with the volume, nor technology to treat the chemicals in the wastewater. All of these treatment plants discharge to river systems, and it is likely (if not a sureity) that the wastewater is not as clean as pre-gas well discharge ops began.

Then you have the other side issues associated with transport etc.

I feel then, that the issues associated with wastewater are much more of a problem than the possibilities of problems caused by actual well construction.
 
And finding a motel room in some remote areas is impossible as the well teams have them locked up.

Is this seriously a reason to shut the industry down? Surely you're joking Mr. macdoc.

Boy oh boy, let's freeze in the dark so someone can find a place at the Super 8!
 
Oh spare us the crap polemics with agenda.

My point is these out of town teams are blowing in for a short period, putting in wells, wrecking the place and the locals are getting diddly squat except a trashed wilderness

And the profits go to Texas et al.

No ongoing jobs for locals.
 
Oh spare us the crap polemics with agenda.

My point is these out of town teams are blowing in for a short period, putting in wells, wrecking the place and the locals are getting diddly squat except a trashed wilderness

And the profits go to Texas et al.

No ongoing jobs for locals.

The locals who are property owners are making quite a decent bit of cash, actually.
 
Must have been reacting to your postings...

Huh? I'm not the one who said something as clearly ignorant as (to paraphrase) ... let's stop economic development becasue the workers are filling up the hotel rooms and other people then can't find rooms.

And then after that, some people have the gall to say that I'm one with an agenda. I don't think my posting history can in any way be shown to have an agenda or be full of polemics. I mearly point out nonsense when I see it.
 
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Huh? I'm not the one who said something as clearly ignorant as (to paraphrase) ... let's stop economic development becasue the workers are filling up the hotel rooms and other people then can't find rooms.

And then after that, some people have the gall to say that I'm one with an agenda. I don't think my posting history can in any way be shown to have an agenda or be full of polemics. I mearly point out nonsense when I see it.

Oh, but it isn't nonsense! The person who talked about hotel room getting filled did so in order to illustrate the point that the locals are not benefitting from increased employment.

Listen, the problem is, when huge companies from other states come into a state to tear it apart, and that state sees no benefits in the drilling. You have Texas coming into PA, tearing apart the state forest lands using workers from Texas, and sending all the profit back to Texas.

You can blame the problem on the state government all you want as well. Unfortunately, the state government had mandates that the gas companies are ignoring. Some mandates include repairing roads they use, and to observe safety protocols. Gas companies do not do any of that.

I also find it funny how people who are remote from a situation scream "DRILL BABY DRILL!" and don't care what happens to the local populations. But wait until these companies start drilling in your backyard, poisoning the water you and your children drink, tearing apart your roads, driving up prices of rent in your cities because they are not hiring any locals, using billions of gallons of water from your aquifers, driving up the price of water on your utility bills. And on, and on, and on....

The point is, nobody is calling for the economy to come to a screeching halt. What we are calling for is outside companies who come in respect the local environment, take every precaution to protect the environment, and fix anything they destroy (such as roads.) They should also take the time to try to hire as many of the locals as possible. If they cannot do these things, they do not need to be here.
 
Listen, the problem is, when huge companies from other states come into a state to tear it apart, and that state sees no benefits in the drilling. You have Texas coming into PA, tearing apart the state forest lands using workers from Texas, and sending all the profit back to Texas.

exactly - not only are the gas profits going out of state - the workers are imported.

Shell has had some notable progress is avoiding that in other countries

http://www.bus-ex.com/article/shell-gabon
 
exactly - not only are the gas profits going out of state - the workers are imported.


That's a very bigoted point of view. PA and TX are in the same country. I did not know that one region of the USA holds such strongly negative views about people/workers from another region.

There is absolutely nothing preventing the local workers from eventually learning the speciallized skills that the TX crews are now bringing to the table. In the long run, it will be much cheaper* to hire local labour, so I have no doubt that will happen.

To me this is textbook capitalism at work. Capital, skills and labour are moving in to fill a need. There's a lot of hard working and smart PA workers. They will eventually displace the "imports".

BTW - I wholeheartedly agree that appropriate and effective regulation is critical on this issue. Many parts of the world demonstrate that resource extraction and environmental protection can coexist. Extreme dogmatic view points that preclude any sort of development are counterproductive and dangerous in a world with 7X10^9 mouths to feed.

*ETA - by cheaper I don't mean pay them less. I mean the service companies won't have to pay the added costs of putting them up in hotels and per diem, etc, etc ...
 
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exactly - not only are the gas profits going out of state - the workers are imported.

Shell has had some notable progress is avoiding that in other countries

http://www.bus-ex.com/article/shell-gabon
http://www.bus-ex.com/article/shell-gabon[/quote??
I must be reading that article incorrectly? It doesn't seem to support your argument.

"Hiring from the local community has always been high on the list of Shell Gabon’s priorities—of the Shell Gabon workforce, around 75 to 80 per cent is Gabonese, says Soselisa, but there are additional operations units which are manpower-intensive and within these, the majority of the staff—around 97 per cent—is Gabonese"
 
...Listen, the problem is, when huge companies from other states come into a state to tear it apart, and that state sees no benefits in the drilling. You have Texas coming into PA, tearing apart the state forest lands using workers from Texas, and sending all the profit back to Texas...
This appears to be quite incorrect and based on biased opinion only.

From a list of current drilling permits issued to date in 2011 at the PA DoEP site the VAST majority have been issued to companies incorporated in PA.

All Wells:
Texas : 107 of 1299 - 8%
Pennsylvania : 1006 of 1299 - 77%

Marcellus Shale Wells:
Texas : 73 of 791 - 9%
Pennsylvania : 563 of 791 - 71%
But wait until these companies start drilling in your backyard, poisoning the water you and your children drink, tearing apart your roads, driving up prices of rent in your cities because they are not hiring any locals, using billions of gallons of water from your aquifers, driving up the price of water on your utility bills. And on, and on, and on....

The point is, nobody is calling for the economy to come to a screeching halt. What we are calling for is outside companies who come in respect the local environment, take every precaution to protect the environment, and fix anything they destroy (such as roads.) They should also take the time to try to hire as many of the locals as possible. If they cannot do these things, they do not need to be here.
Seems to me that Pennsylvanians are doing it to themselves and attempting to scapegoate "furriners" from out of state.
 
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Ehocking: Thanks for taking the time to answer some of the more spurrious "understandings" that are flat wrong.

The amount of mis-information propogated here concerning the oli business is staggering.
 
Ehocking: Thanks for taking the time to answer some of the more spurrious "understandings" that are flat wrong.

The amount of mis-information propogated here concerning the oli business is staggering.
More.

Of the total active wells in PA,

102,885 of the 131,795 are owned and operated by PA companies (78%) and only 2142 are owned and operated by TX companies (2%).

I checked through another (incomplete) company list and checked the state or country that they are incorporated in, and even accounting for mergers and buyouts by larger companies, 68% of the operators in PA are incorporated in PA.

That 68% excludes out of state companies that merely have an operations office in PA, it is the state the company is incorporated in.
 
Why do I suspect that number includes ALL oil and gas wells and not fracking operations. :garfield:

since your link is to a general info page and PA STARTED the oil industry.
 
Why do I suspect that number includes ALL oil and gas wells and not fracking operations. :garfield:
OH YOU'RE RIGHT.

Gas wells only -
55,170 PA company operated - 75.76%
1,650 TX company operated - 2.27%

Now, gas wells filtered for ONLY Marcellus Shale gas wells
38,638 PA company operated - 75.59%

Yep. I can see how that distinction made such a difference.:rolleyes:
since your link is to a general info page.
You may need to check your browser.

The page is for oil and gas reports. Quite specific to the topic.
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/oilgas/reports.htm
and PA STARTED the oil industry
So. Not a shortage of experienced oilworkers in THAT state then, so little financial incentive to transport out of state workers to do the job.
 
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