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Fun With Flags

The Great Zaganza said:
I am in two minds about this.
On the one hand, the availability of national borders is what has kept the world comparatively safe. On the other hand it brings a whole lot of problems.
A Flag is just a sticker to make it easier to distinguish on territory from another on a map - any feelings beyond that are artificially created.

I think the world would benefit from a lot more zones of free movement of people and money like in the EU: people literally don't think much about traveling to other member States, as money, most laws, mobile phone contracts, driver's licenses etc.etc. work everywhere the same; you might not even notice that you've crossed a border.

Nation States as a rule shouldn't take themselves so seriously.
They are, after all, entirely artificial constructs.
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Vonnegut might call it a granfaloon, defined in Cat's Cradle as "false karass". That is, it is a group of people who affect a shared identity or purpose, but whose mutual association is meaningless, i.e. "the Communist Party, the Daughters of the American Revolution, the General Electric Company—and any nation, anytime, anywhere."

If you wish to examine a granfalloon, just remove the skin of a toy balloon. — Bokonon
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
How do you feel when you see your national flag?

How much of your standard of living has been contingent on your country installing friendly dictators, imposing "free" trade on countries with less developed economies, proxy wars, etc.?

I don't think any person from a developed country should feel anything but shame in what their national flag represents.
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I am an American. My father was involved in the Omaha Beach assault on D-Day. He was in the Navy aboard an LST transporting tanks ashore. His cousin or my cousin once removed was in the Army 26th Infantry Division that fought its way across Europe He died near Schevenhütte, Germany during the Battle of Hurtgen Forest.

There was a time I was proud of my nation. And I proudly displayed the flag on Memorial Day, June 6th, July 4th, and October 25th the day my cousin Frank was awarded the to Medal of Honor.

But I can't stand how the meaning of the flag is misused and abused. It represents little to so many people in the US other than tribalism.
 
I judge people who display our flag in their garden or window. Other than that, I don't mind it but they should come up with something less colonial, but that probably won't happen unless we ever ditch the monarchy.
 
Brainster said:
So they never paid back the principal at all?
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They have in many cases paid back the amount of the principal many times over. The policies forced on these countries to repay debt rather than invest in public goods such as healthcare and education make it very difficult for them to ever grow their economies enough to clear the debt. This is deliberate. The countries have resources we want and colonialism ended, so instead we use the World Bank, IMF and WTO to keep them subordinate.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
They have in many cases paid back the amount of the principal many times over. The policies forced on these countries to repay debt rather than invest in public goods such as healthcare and education make it very difficult for them to ever grow their economies enough to clear the debt. This is deliberate. The countries have resources we want and colonialism ended, so instead we use the World Bank, IMF and WTO to keep them subordinate.
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Do you regard this as a plot devised by a group of rich nations to oppress poor ones rather than as a phenomenon which emerges when each acts in their own interests?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Do you regard this as a plot devised by a group of rich nations to oppress poor ones rather than as a phenomenon which emerges when each acts in their own interests?
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When poor countries act in their interests by trying to develop their own industries they have their regimes changed through covert and sometimes overt means.

Developed countries force free trade rules and ever more stringent patent rules on developing countries even though all developed countries protected their infant industries until they could compete with more established economies.

The idea is to get us to assume there is something intrinsically different about the population of poor countries that inhibits their ability to develop, rather than a deliberate policy of exploitation that's been going on since Columbus noted how easy it would be (and was) to subdue and enslave the south American natives he encountered.
 
I mean, on aesthetic grounds, I think the Union flag (or Butcher's Apron) is pretty good. I think there are few that are better. I suppose the Jolly Roger has some edgy charm to it. I think tricolors are okay, and I use one of them in my avatar after the anti-Charlie Hebdo attacks because ultimately France favours liberté (as well as égalité and fraternité) which are represented by the flag and are opposed by what I consider to be bad ideologies.

Yes, flags are ultimately just pieces of cloth or particular colours, but I will warrant that many of those who ridicule them will also have values (and almost certainly their own flags) that they hold dear and would be upset about seeing traduced.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
They have in many cases paid back the amount of the principal many times over. The policies forced on these countries to repay debt rather than invest in public goods such as healthcare and education make it very difficult for them to ever grow their economies enough to clear the debt. This is deliberate. The countries have resources we want and colonialism ended, so instead we use the World Bank, IMF and WTO to keep them subordinate.
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I did a little poking around and found that LDCs typically pay between 5% and 8% on their debt:

Developing countries’ average interest cost on external borrowing is three times higher than that of developed countries (Figure 1). In the low interest environment of the last decade, developed countries borrowed at an interest cost of an average of 1 percent. Least developed countries (LDCs), which have increasingly tapped international markets in recent years, borrowed at rates over 5 percent, with some countries paying over 8 percent.
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At 5% it would take 20 years for the interest cost to equal the principal; at 8% it would take 12.5 years. So in order for those countries to have paid the amount of the principal many times over we must be talking about over 100 years.
 
Brainster said:
I did a little poking around and found that LDCs typically pay between 5% and 8% on their debt:


At 5% it would take 20 years for the interest cost to equal the principal; at 8% it would take 12.5 years. So in order for those countries to have paid the amount of the principal many times over we must be talking about over 100 years.
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Compound interest doesn't work that way. 5% compound would take ~15 years for the interest to equal the principal and 8% only ~9 years.

So a loan taken out in the 1970's (~40 years ago) has 2.7 and 4.4 doubling times at 5% and 8% interest, respectively.
 
Ivor the Engineer said:
Compound interest doesn't work that way. 5% compound would take ~15 years for the interest to equal the principal and 8% only ~9 years.

So a loan taken out in the 1970's (~40 years ago) has 2.7 and 4.4 doubling times at 5% and 8% interest, respectively.
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Only if they haven't paid a penny in interest or principal, which is not your argument as I understand it.
 
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