French Secularism

[ceo_esq]

From a Reuters blurb today:

Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin of France, faced with a rise in radical Islam in schools, has said his government could act to give teachers formal legal power to expel students who flaunt their religion.

The traditional Muslim headscarf, in particular, stirs debate in France, a secular state with a Roman Catholic majority. A survey last week suggested that over a third of people think Muslim women should be barred from wearing head scarves in any public place.

Raffarin said teachers would take a hard line with pupils who show religious allegiance in school in defiance of France's secular tradition. "It must be stated clearly that secular values must be respected," Raffarin told Europe 1 radio in an interview broadcast Sunday.

Separation of church and state has a different meaning and dynamic in France than it does in the United States, in my experience. The American variety traditionally takes the form of an acquiescent, indulgent neutrality toward religion. The French variety, on the other hand, consists in a sort of institutionalized, undiscriminating antipathy toward all non-private religious expression. (For example, French public school students, as the cited story suggests, are not supposed to wear visible symbols - Christian or otherwise - of religious affiliation.)

All other things being equal, given a choice between these two strains of church/state separation, under which would you prefer to live?

 

[GrapeJ713]

I would prefer the USA ideal, most of the time government is not nuetral in christian matters. Government should be nuetral to religion and not interfere in the worship or non-worship. But, worshipers don't get special priviledges. A door to door missionary shouldn't have any more free speech rights than a door to door salesman.

 

[Loki]

ceo_esq,

All other things being equal, given a choice between these two strains of church/state separation, under which would you prefer to live?

Personally, I prefer the Australian model - which, I guess, is a variation of the American model. Plenty of people walk the streets wearing "tribal allegience" symbols like Islamic headscarves or Rosary Beads, but in issues of governance and social structure the formal religions are neither "neutral" or "suppressed", but "irrelevant".

Like the French model, there seems to be a clear feeling that religion is "overstepping the mark" if it interfers in government - so there's active pressure for religion to "stay out of the way".

Perhaps an example - I was fascinated watching the "Should christians go to war" debates (one on Larry King in particular) from the US during the Iraqi conflict. There was a much stronger anti-war movement here, but I can think of no examples of any theology-versus-politics debates.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

France wins

Overall the French version given those two options. I think France is actually ahead of the US in some respects(though I don't believe in others, especially matters of foreign policy.)

And yes it may err on the side of the antireligious but I'd rather it do that then err on the side of religion, like the US will sometimes do.

I'd rather a compromise of the systems overall though, one that allows religious freedom, but like the above poster said, makes it irrelevant when determining policy or punishing crime(especially when a child abuser claims that not giving his or her child medical care is merely religious expression).