Freeriders or Freeloaders

rcfieldz

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"Freeriders" as I heard used by Nancy Pelosi Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) and "Freeloaders" said by Xavier Becerra Democratic Vice-Chairman of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) seem to be a thinly veiled slur on a segment of our population. An obvious smear campaign against some fringe element of the Republican party no doubt. Tho unspecific, which I find the Democratic Party to abide or adhere to...Hopefully they can make their reference a bit clearer so that the public can define their intentions.
 
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"Freeriders" as I heard used by Nancy Pelosi Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) and "Freeloaders" said by Xavier Becerra Democratic Vice-Chairman of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) seem to be a thinly veiled slur on a segment of our population. An obvious smear campaign against some fringe element of the Republican party no doubt. Tho unspecific, which I find the Democratic Party to abide or adhere to...Hopefully they can make their reference a bit clearer so that the public can define their intentsions.

You needed interpretation of that?

Really?

No, I just think you wanted to start a flame war.
 
"Freeriders" as I heard used by Nancy Pelosi Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) and "Freeloaders" said by Xavier Becerra Democratic Vice-Chairman of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) seem to be a thinly veiled slur on a segment of our population. An obvious smear campaign against some fringe element of the Republican party no doubt. Tho unspecific, which I find the Democratic Party to abide or adhere to...Hopefully they can make their reference a bit clearer so that the public can define their intentions.
Ahh.. the Obama time machine at work again... went back in time to coin the term 'free riders' in order to have it handy for today's character assassination.

:rolleyes:
 
What is this thread about? There are no links, no substance on which to comment.

Somebody got a free ride to Nancy Pelosi's house and Yogi Berra started a smear campaign about the Republicans, but he claimed "I didn't really say everything I said."
 
"Freeriders" as I heard used by Nancy Pelosi Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) and "Freeloaders" said by Xavier Becerra Democratic Vice-Chairman of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) seem to be a thinly veiled slur on a segment of our population


You say you heard this used by Nancy Pelosi, but unfortunately you neglected to provide either a transcript of what you heard her say or a link to what she said.

Suggestion: it's a good idea, if you wish to discuss something someone has said, to provide the actual quote. Too often in politics people get heated up over what someone has supposedly said, as reported by third parties who may have garbled, misinterpreted, or even in some cases invented the claimed quote.

I did a quick Google of Nancy Pelosi free riders to see what it is she said that has you so worked up. Most of the hits were not of news stories reporting such a quote; they were simply right-wing sites echo-chambering their outrage that Pelosi had said this. Sort of like your OP.

But among all the echo-chamber outrage posts I was able to find a couple which actually explained what was going on and gave the quote. Here's the quote:

Nancy Pelosi said:
Who is the penalty on? The penalty is on people who have the wherewithal but refuse to buy health insurance, figuring they won't be sick, and if they do, other people will have to cover it. So free riders, as they were identified by Governor Romney himself, he said, people have the ability to pay and can't expect to be free riders, and I think that he termed it exactly right. These free riders make health insurance for those who are taking responsibility more expensive.


Pelosi claims to be quoting Mitt Romney. And her claim appears to be correct.

Here he is quoted as saying it January 5, 2008, while appearing in a NH primary debate:

Mitt Romney said:
Yeah, we said, look, if people can afford to buy it, either buy the insurance or pay your own way. Don’t be free riders and pass on the cost of your health care to everybody else.


Here he is quoted as saying it in an op-ed he wrote for USA Today, published July 30, 2009:

Mitt Romney said:
Our experience also demonstrates that getting every citizen insured doesn’t have to break the bank. First, we established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance. Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages ‘free riders’ to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others. This doesn’t cost the government a single dollar.


And here he is quoted as saying it during an appearance at Claremont College on April 15, 2010:

Right now people who can afford to buy insurance make the decision I’m not going to buy insurance. I’m going to be a free rider. And if I get sick or get in a serious accident, then government’s going to pay for me. That in my view is the big government solution we have right now. The alternative – there are a couple alternatives – one is to say to employers you must give insurance to every one of your employees. I said no I don’t want to do that. That’s going to kill jobs. And the other alternative is to say to people if you can afford to get insurance, you ought to buy insurance. And if you don’t buy it you’re going to get penalized with a higher tax rate for not having gotten insurance...


This appears to have been a standard Romney line, that people who could afford to buy insurance but don't are free riders.

rcfieldz said:
An obvious smear campaign against some fringe element of the Republican party no doubt.


I'm surprised Romney would do that, since he needed Republican votes during the primaries to win the nomination. Interesting campaign strategy! But apparently it worked. It will be interesting to see if he continues this smear campaign as part of his strategy to win votes in November's election.

rcfieldz said:
Hopefully they can make their reference a bit clearer so that the public can define their intentions.


I agree, it would be good if Romney and his campaign staff are pressed to clarify what Romney meant by calling people free riders. Even though you think it was an obvious smear campaign, it's possible there's some more innocent explanation for his repeated use of the term.
 
"Freeriders" as I heard used by Nancy Pelosi Minority Leader of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) and "Freeloaders" said by Xavier Becerra Democratic Vice-Chairman of the United States House of Representatives (D-CA) seem to be a thinly veiled slur on a segment of our population.


Don't you just hate folks who attempt thinly veiled slurs on segments of our population?

For example, like this guy.

:rolleyes:
 
maybe I won't

If you or anyone else doesn't know what someone said and where, when, etc. then I can't help you because no matter what I say to be on this thread will be ridiculed with a disdain for my opinions. And I fail to see answers that prove anything but are nothing more than chest pumping.
 
I already have a nice life. Maybe you too could find a web forum more suited to your world view.
Clever response, parroting back a criticism leveled at you. :rolleyes:

More seriously...

You created a thread with a marginally coherent paragraph. You claimed people said things but provided no quotes, no links, no context.

Nova Land, did your job for you. He did research and found some possible sources for your claims and then offered possibly explanations. That's what you should have done prior to creating this thread. Was Nova Land correct? We don't know because when I asked you to comment on his post, you hand waved it away with another marginally coherent thought.

If you want to be taken seriously, you should consider, posting rational, coherent comments and when you make claims about what others say, source those claims.

Why don't you spend a few minutes and read Nova Land's post. Think about it, then construct your response.

Thanks.
 
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You created a thread with a marginally coherent paragraph. You claimed people said things but provided no quotes, no links, no context...

If you want to be taken seriously, you should consider, posting rational, coherent comments and when you make claims about what others say, source those claims.


That is excellent advice.

The use of the terms free riders and freeloaders in the ongoing debate over health care reform is potentially an interesting topic for discussion. The OP was not very helpful in getting such a discussion going. But that was Monday's mistake. Perhaps we can put that (and the personal attacks) aside and proceed to a discussion of the issues.

Today another congressional Democrat, Jim McDermott of Washington state, used Romney's freeloaders framing in discussing this issue during a house vote on repealing the Affordable Care Act:

Talking Points Memo said:
House GOP Holds 33rd Vote To Stick It To ‘Obamacare’

House Republicans will vote Wednesday to repeal ‘Obamacare’ — again.

“To date, 32 Floor votes have been taken to repeal, defund, or dismantle ObamaCare. Tomorrow’s vote to repeal ObamaCare will be the 33rd,” read an advisory from the office of Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy (R-CA)...

For Democrats, it was an opportunity to highlight the benefits in the law, such as guaranteed coverage for people with preexisting conditions and the ability to remain on a parent’s insurance policy until 26. Democrats also bragged that the measure was pioneered by Mitt Romney in Massachusetts, and echoed his defense of the mandate as an anti-free-rider provision.

“The Republicans are glorifying freeloaders,” said Rep. Jim McDermott (WA), the only physician in the Democratic caucus. “People who say they don’t want to pay if they can.”
 
If you or anyone else doesn't know what someone said and where, when, etc. then I can't help you because no matter what I say to be on this thread will be ridiculed with a disdain for my opinions. And I fail to see answers that prove anything but are nothing more than chest pumping.

Not your opinion, your accuracy.
 
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If you or anyone else doesn't know what someone said and where, when, etc. then I can't help you because no matter what I say to be on this thread will be ridiculed with a disdain for my opinions. And I fail to see answers that prove anything but are nothing more than chest pumping.
The answer to such failures is to try harder, and to do better.

Now, are you going to answer the questions?
 
Neither the OP nor my first attempt to clarify the matter raised in the OP seems to be leading to serious discussion, so let me try again.

I. A summary of the matter raised in the OP

1. In 2006 a health care insurance reform law (aka Romneycare) was signed into law in Massachusetts. This law included an individual mandate as a key provision.

2. At the time, and at least until 2010, Mitt Romney defended the individual mandate as a conservative approach; a free market approach; a personal responsibility approach.

3. In making this argument, Romney repeatedly used the term free riders to describe those who could afford to pay for insurance but chose not to buy it.

4. In 2010 the Affordable Care Act (aka ObamaCare) was signed into law. Like RomneyCare, it too included an individual mandate.

5. In recent days prominent Democrats (such as Nancy Pelosi, Xavier Becerra, and Jim McDermott) have used the same kind of arguments and language to defend the individual mandate as Romney did. In doing so, they often specifically reference Romney as a source of the argument they are making and language they are using.

6. In recent days prominent Republican entertainers (such as Rush Limbaugh) have tried to induce outrage in their listeners at the use of the terms "free riders" and "freeloaders".

II. Some questions this matter raises (and my responses):

1. Why did Mitt Romney use this argument and these terms in his defense of the individual mandate? Because these are simple, clear, reasonably non-inflammatory ways of getting across the point which he was trying to make.

2. Why are Democrats now using this argument and these terms in their defense of the individual mandate?

Two reasons.

First: in order to garner support for ObamaCare. It's a simple, clear argument which they expect people to understand and respond to well. And it's an argument designed by a Republican to appeal to Republicans; as such it's more likely to be effective in reaching Republican-leaning voters than an appeal designed by Democrats to appeal to Democrats.

Second: in order to embarrass Mitt Romney and decrease his chances of winning in November, by calling attention to his Etch-A-Sketchiness. Romney routinely changes his stands on issues, then pretends he never held his previous positions. By using Romney's own argument about "free riders", and repeatedly crediting him with it, Democrats put Romney in the uncomfortable position of either having to agree with the argument he formerly put forward (and thus defend a key aspect of ObamaCare); disagree with the argument he formerly put forward (and thus spotlight that he once held the position he and other Republicans are now attacking); or duck, weave, and try to evade the question.

3. Are the terms "free riders" and "freeloaders" examples of hyperbolic and/or incendiary rhetoric? No.

4. Is the use of the term "free rider" to describe people who can afford to buy insurance but don't a smear campaign?

No.

5. Is Rush Limbaugh playing his audience for suckers by trying to sell them on the notion the use of these terms is some kind of smear campaign?

Yes.
 
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Address the arg... well... the nominal topic, not the member.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Tricky
 

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