Why do you keep trying to avoid the question by changing it? Simple question: Since I did not choose my parents, is it my responsibility who they are? I'm not talking about things I have a CHOICE over, such as whether to attempt a terrorist bombing. Let's say I was conceived out of wedlock, for example, or due to unprotected sex. That action, committed by my parents, had direct consequences on my, certainly - I was born, after all - but am I responsible for them having unprotected sex? Would it be my fault if I was born out of wedlock?
Franko said:
Like I said Joshua, you are an A-Theist. You don’t want to accept responsibility for your own actions. You want to live a consequence free existence. That’s why you like to believe you have magic “guilt-free (willy)” powers. Don’t think that you-know-who isn’t watching and paying very careful attention.
You are so full it of, Franko.
No matter how I try to simplify it, it goes over your head. Either you are unable to respond, or unwilling to respond. Let's try again:
Listen, I believe everyone is responsible for their own actions. That's WHY I don't believe the universe is absolutely deterministic. If the universe is deterministic, as you contend, and if I am just a program doing what I was programmed to do,
as you contend, then am I responsible for what the Programmer designed me to do? If, indeed, the universe is deterministic, and I'm just doing what I'm programmed to do, and can't change or do anything else (because I have no will), then why doesn't the Goddess simply delete me right away, instead of running me? Is she
hoping that I will "magically" IGNORE my program and become a paragon of virtue? If the universe is "deterministic", why can't she just look at my code and say "oh, Joshua was programmed to not believe in me, he is a bad program" and send me to the Cosmic Abyssal Recycling Bin immediately?
See, let's say I'm just an algorithm, a peer-to-peer transfer protocol that some programmer designed so that people can share files over the internet - like WinMX or Kazaa. My job is simply that - to transer files. That's it - I have no control over what those files are, I just transfer them.
Now, suppose the Programmer who wrote and installed me uses me to transfer Bad Things - like terrorist bomb plans, for example, or child pornography. Maybe being able to get such things is why he programmed me all along. It doesn't matter. I have no choice over what files I transfer - I couldn't stop it if I wanted to. I couldn't even "want" to stop it, because I have no will.
What
you are saying is that when my "cycle" is up, then the Goddess will look at me and say, "during your existence, you were used to transfer terrorist bomb plans and child pornography - therefore, you are a bad program and you will be deleted from the hard drive of the universe."
There are problems with your version of the universe. The first problem is that the judgement ultimately doesn't matter to me - I'm a few lines of code and that's it. When I'm "exited" and "uninstalled", nothing can possibly matter to me any longer, because I am no longer running. So the purpose of "judgement" in your universe is an unnecessary (and therefore illogical) extravagance.
But the second, and most obvious, problem is that your universe blames the
tool used to commit the crime rather than the evil Programmer who actually committed it. Why doesn't the Goddess ever get pissed at the "Progenitor/Initial/Lead/Solipsist/Programmer" for writing such effed-up program/gravitons? Imagine what it would be like if the FBI, when it finds a child pornographer, puts the file-transer program on trial and sentences it to be "deleted" instead of arresting the criminal himself. That's the universe you present, Franko.
Now, before you have a seizure, you need to remember that the purpose of this thread isn't to prove whether "God" exists or doesn't. It isn't to "prove" whether the universe is deterministic or purely random, allowing for free will. The universe may very well be deterministic, Franko.
The
sole purpose of this thread is to prove that a universe
can be predetermined, or
can be personal-responsibility based, but
can't be both at the same time. The two types of universes are mutually exclusive. And yes, God (or Goddess)
can exist in
either one. It seems to me that you think your explanation of the universe is the only one in which God can exist, therefore to disprove your explanation is to disprove the existence of God. It's not true - I've done nothing to disprove the existence of God.
You say you don't believe that the two are mutually exclusive - but those two programs I wrote at the very beginning of the thread prove that they are mutually exclusive. Of course, you admittedly started saying that I was wrong immediately
without even reading the programs! Who is the one who already had his mind made up?
No matter how much you say I'm wrong, the programs are there for all to see, and they won't go away. Rather than long strings of convoluted arguments, those two programs are
physical, repeatable, and direct evidence that I'm right. They work, and if you would actually look at them, you'd see too that they prove exactly what I say they prove. But you won't examine them. Are you afraid of what they might show you?
