Franko Memorial thread!

[wraith]

Re: Re: Re: CAR controls YOU controls Abyss!

Ill get back to you Churchy when Ive finished rounding up some zzzs haha

catch yas on the flip side

 

[Upchurch]

Re: Re: Re: Re: CAR controls YOU controls Abyss!

catch yas on the flip side

You are already there.

 

[CWL]

?
How is this related to, as you said, "properties of the universe"?
Ultimately youre saying that TLOP has no logical reason for existing.

Semantics and logic is not the same thing wraith. Simply saying "I obey" does not constitute "logical reason" (whatever that is) for anything.

Your brain is more complex than a carbon atom.

Exactly - give the man a cigar!

It is indeed more complex, hence it can do things that a carbon atom cannot. Therefore the conclusion of the following syllogism is not correct.

Atoms behave in certain way
You are made of atoms
You behave in (exactly) the same way as atoms

You do not behave in exactly the same way as atoms. So you see, there is no guarantee that the conclusion of a syllogism which is subject to the Fallacy of Composition will be correct. Therefore such a syllogism is invalid even if the conclusion should happen to be a true statement. In other words, the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

Do you now understand what the Fallacy of Composition is and why Franko's Syllogism does not refute free will (or indeed why it does not refute anything at all)?

You have simply exchanged "behave in a certain way" for "obey the laws of physics" - i.e. semantic games which change or prove nothing.

So youre saying that one of the premises is false? Whats the flaw?

You worked it out yourself, son. See above.

TLOP being non-conscious is not True by default. That's your claim. YOU have to support it.

Nothing is "true by default". I do not claim that TLOP is non-conscious. I am saying that it is reasonable to assume that it is not in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Can you spot the subtle, but o so important, difference?

To put the label of "true" on something we need to back it up with evidence - by observation.

We can observe that matter and energy appears to behave in a certain way. We call this behaviour "the laws of physics".

If we want to go on to claim that this behaviour is caused by a conscious entity we need to base such an assumption on further observations.

See how that works?

Now, may I ask - which observations lead you to assume that the laws of physics are conscious?

What's the flaw? Atoms dont obey TLOP? Are you saying that an atom obeys TLOP but as soon as you get more atoms, the rules dont apply?

See above, lad.

A bit like a dog controlling you?

Exactly like a dog controlling me. Haven't you ever chased by an angry dog? Were you running because the dog suddenly became more conscious than you or because it had pretty darn sharp fangs?

Face it , "TLOP > YOU > CAR" simply doesn't prove that TLOP is conscious.

Depends on what we're arguing about??

Well, you were the one who implied that your statement "matter can be reduced to energy" was somehow relevant to our discussion.

Again I ask, how?

 

[Tricky]

Re: Re: Re: this guy is amazing!

Able to perceive reason.

You can reason with TLOP? How does that work? If you fall of a building can you say, "Please, TLOP, I need you to turn off gravity for just a few seconds. It's really important."

Sense of "I"

This same TLOP that constrains every single thing in the universe is now an individual? What's it's favorite color?

Im sure that God has Feelings

How can you be sure?

Even God is bound by Fate.

Then God is powerless. Why don't you just say that Fate is God? Or is Fate bound by something else?

Does God sleep? Interesting

You seem to be sure that God has feelings. Why don't you know this about God?

Sure.
Youre a function of TLOP.

Some non-sequiturs are making pancakes because the zebras are hiding from the silly putty.

Well youre here (in this universe) are you not?

Having looked at all your responses, I must conclude that you either do not have or do not wish to share evidence that TLOP are conscious.

Have a nice set of Z's . When you and God are conscious again, we'll talk.

 

[Q-Source]

this guy is amazingly inconsistent!

wraith,

Look how this conversation has gone:

You first said:

Are you saying that the universe was created before TLOP came into play? I

then I replied:

The Universe was "created" before TLOP, my friend. TLOP are a human construct, a mathematical description of the Universe. No more no less. So, until humans came into existence, there were no TLOP, because they are a result of human reasoning.

and then your "intelligent" counter-attack:

Are you saying that the map came before the terrain?

I am saying that the terrain came before the map!!!!!!!!!

TLOP = map
Universe = terrain

Read my previous response.



Somebody help him to get out of his misery.

 

[DialecticMaterialist]

What an example?

I bet you do!

Anyways 1 plus 1 equals 2 in this reality, that is true, but in another reality where it was false it would be false. Stopi being simple.

If youre talking about the car losing grip on the road and I lose control, are you saying that the car is responsible for my actions when I open the door and jump out?

You cannot do anything if the car gets in the way. If the door doesn't open, you can't jump out.

Are you saying that the thought to accelerate the car wasnt due to TLOP? If not, where did it come from?

TLOP are small things, CAR is a big collection of TLOP. Think about it.

The evidence of that is staggering haha

Yeah it is, your just delusional and too damn dumb to realize it. LOL.

The Abyss is Solipsism.
So yeah, it's controlled by your consciousness.

HA! So are you saying the Abyss is stronger then LD and TLOP?

Are you asking where consciousness came from?

As if YOU would know.

I know where it came from. So no. (had to say "so no" cause u prolly wouldn't get it.)

Where did Time begin?

When a person made a sun dial. Where did "meters" begin?

As for pure randomness, I dont see how logic can allow this.

Look at QM. Unless you are too illiterate.

 

[PixyMisa]

For the record, I just want to state that there is no truth to the theory that I am Franko.

None.

At all.

...

I may be the Logical Goddess, but that's different.

 

[c4ts]

I may be the Logical Goddess, but that's different.

I thought you were a guy.

 

[PixyMisa]

I thought you were a guy.

Well, this is true. But Franko never fully believed it. Besides, for the Logical Goddess, all things are possible.

Except creating gravitons, apparently.

 

[Tricky]

For the record, I just want to state that there is no truth to the theory that I am Franko.

None.

At all.

...

I may be the Logical Goddess, but that's different.

Where the hell have you been, PM? I have had a heck of a time trying to educate Wraith without your input. Let us know when you are going to take a sabbatical next time.

 

[c4ts]

Well, this is true. But Franko never fully believed it. Besides, for the Logical Goddess, all things are possible.

Except creating gravitons, apparently.

Add getting followers and creating a cogent sytematic philosophy to the list of things the LG cannot do. LD is neither a religion or a philosophy- but I think you already knew it was sophistry anyway.

Had Franko studied quantum physics instead of hanging out in imaginary strip clubs and taking classes in mysterious criminology without ethics, he might have had a decent starting point for his "foolosophy" (as S&S calls it).

 

[PixyMisa]

Sorry, Tricky.

I got a part-time job. Since I'd been unemployed for months, this was good.

Then the same company offered me a full-time job. Only they still wanted me to do the part-time job.

I've been kind of busy lately. On the other hand, my bank balance seems much more cheerful.

 

[PixyMisa]

Add getting followers and creating a cogent sytematic philosophy to the list of things the LG cannot do. LD is neither a religion or a philosophy- but I think you already knew it was sophistry anyway.

OK, OK, except for getting followers and forming a cogent systematic philosophy and creating gravitons, for the Logical Goddess, all things are possible.

 

[wraith]

Re: Re: Re: CAR controls YOU controls Abyss!

You can say it all you like and it might be logically consistant (I don't think it is), but being logically consistant is not sufficent to prove truth. At best, you have conjecture.

Sure, depending on the evidence that you have, you can think up different situations to try and solve something.....

You have offered nothing except for double standards and your unyielding word of ceasing to exist....based on what?

Logic? hahaha

What does consciousness have to do with control? I can be mauled (a form of being control, since I don't want it to happen) by a bear, does that make the bear more conscious than I am?

Sure, killing is a form of control.
From the bear's point of view, all that he can do his strike and perhaps growl a bit...that's the extent of the bear's ability. You on the other hand can get yourself a gun...

I my legs can be crushed by a rolling rock, does that make the rock more conscious than I am?

So when a rock lands on your foot, is that similar to saying that a rock is controlling you?

Consciosness is not necessary for control. Metaphorically, TLOP is just the room we live in. We can do whatever we like as long as we stay in the room. We can do whatever we like as long as we act in accordance with the laws of physics, which is just another name for the nature of the universe. TLOP need not be conscious to define our limitations any more than a room must be consious to define its boundries. The room doesn't think about where it's boundries are, it just is what it is.

So your actions are totally independent of TLOP?
What does this say about correlations?
Are you pulling a Tricky and saying that we are constricted by TLOP but do not obey TLOP?
What's something that is evidence of this?

Consider the theory of evolution and ambio-genisis (someone help me on the spelling here). Non-living things generating living things and consciousness developing from that.
Nice strawman. Let me repeat, "You have yet to show definitive proof that TLOP is actually conscious."

Id like to read about it.
Do you have any links?

Besides, I have told you why I think that TLOP is conscious.
Im not more conscious than the force controlling me.


How about the force behind TLOP? Besides, if Consciousness has a direct link to

Gravity, then consciousness is materialistic, just not in the sense as you would see

Again, you haven't shown that TLOP is conscious. That conclusion rests on the assumption that only the more conscious can control the conscious. I've already given two examples (bear and rock from above) that shows this isn't the case.

How is this an assumption?
My reasoning is TLOP controls ME controls BEAR
TLOP more conscious than ME more conscious than BEAR

Your examples dont show anything except for your feeble attempts

Further, what is the direct link between consciousness and gravity? Can you show it? Prove it?

My understanding in this area is weak at this point.

Though I will say that Knowledge is Power...

wraith: If you want to live, whats the probability that youll go out and kill yourself.


Churchy: Intentionally? zero. Unintentionally, non-zero.

What do you mean?

My take is that Franko, et al, have read some popularized science and formed faulty opinions on some aspects and rejected others on incomplete information. Velocities do not add linearly, except by approximation at low speeds. "Random" is not logically inconsistant. Consiousness is not required for "control". Space and time are the same thing. Mass and energy are the same thing. etc.

LD does not coincide with what is demonstratable and further isn't logically consistant. Read through Tricky's list again. It almost reads like a laundry list of poor thinking.

haha
WELL when im that familiar in this area but Im progressing.
It seems like youre saying that sums dont equal the whole?

Anyhow, I have confidence in Franko's ability to reason which is infinitely more than what I can say about you

 

[wraith]

Semantics and logic is not the same thing wraith. Simply saying "I obey" does not constitute "logical reason" (whatever that is) for anything.

So you dont obey TLOP?

Exactly - give the man a cigar!

It is indeed more complex, hence it can do things that a carbon atom cannot. Therefore the conclusion of the following syllogism is not correct.

Atoms behave in certain way
You are made of atoms
You behave in (exactly) the same way as atoms

You do not behave in exactly the same way as atoms. So you see, there is no guarantee that the conclusion of a syllogism which is subject to the Fallacy of Composition will be correct. Therefore such a syllogism is invalid even if the conclusion should happen to be a true statement. In other words, the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

HOW!?
Are you saying that an atom is totally in the "hands" of TLOP but when you get more atoms to come together, they tell TLOP to take a hike?

Do you now understand what the Fallacy of Composition is and why Franko's Syllogism does not refute free will (or indeed why it does not refute anything at all)?

I do know the fallacy the syllogism isnt fallacious.

You have simply exchanged "behave in a certain way" for "obey the laws of physics" - i.e. semantic games which change or prove nothing.

?
What are you saying?

wraith: What's the flaw? Atoms dont obey TLOP? Are you saying that an atom obeys TLOP but as soon as you get more atoms, the rules dont apply?


CWL: You worked it out yourself, son. See above.

bah
I didnt work out anything that supported what you were saying
So whats the invisible flaw?
Care to write it in bold text?

Nothing is "true by default". I do not claim that TLOP is non-conscious. I am saying that it is reasonable to assume that it is not in the absence of evidence to the contrary. Can you spot the subtle, but o so important, difference?

Double standards do not provide reasobable grounds to assume this

We can observe that matter and energy appears to behave in a certain way. We call this behaviour "the laws of physics".

If we want to go on to claim that this behaviour is caused by a conscious entity we need to base such an assumption on further observations.

See how that works?

Now, may I ask - which observations lead you to assume that the laws of physics are conscious?

Have you looked at yourself?
oh and by the way, it's not an assumption...

wraith: What's the flaw? Atoms dont obey TLOP? Are you saying that an atom obeys TLOP but as soon as you get more atoms, the rules dont apply?


CWL: See above, lad.

done!

So what is it?

Exactly like a dog controlling me. Haven't you ever chased by an angry dog? Were you running because the dog suddenly became more conscious than you or because it had pretty darn sharp fangs?

"Dog chasing you" is the same as saying "dog is more conscious than you"?

Face it , "TLOP > YOU > CAR" simply doesn't prove that TLOP is conscious.

Looks logical to me

Well, you were the one who implied that your statement "matter can be reduced to energy" was somehow relevant to our discussion.

well, so everything is really energy....
this "hard stuff" (matter) is not creating consciousness

 

[wraith]

Re: Re: Re: Re: this guy is amazing!

You can reason with TLOP? How does that work? If you fall of a building can you say, "Please, TLOP, I need you to turn off gravity for just a few seconds. It's really important."

lol
youre going loco...

This same TLOP that constrains every single thing in the universe is now an individual? What's it's favorite color?

not sure...when I know, youll know

wraith: Im sure that God has Feelings


Tricky:How can you be sure?

Im not more conscious than TLOP remember

wraith: Even God is bound by Fate.


Tricky: Then God is powerless.

LOL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHA

You think that

Why don't you just say that Fate is God? Or is Fate bound by something else?

Well if things are logical, then Fate has to follow.

wraith: Does God sleep? Interesting


Tricky: You seem to be sure that God has feelings. Why don't you know this about God?

Because I dont know everything

wraith: Sure.
Youre a function of TLOP.


Tricky: Some non-sequiturs are making pancakes because the zebras are hiding from the silly putty.

How?

Having looked at all your responses, I must conclude that you either do not have or do not wish to share evidence that TLOP are conscious.

alright

 

[wraith]

Re: this guy is amazingly inconsistent!

I am saying that the terrain came before the map!!!!!!!!!

TLOP = map
Universe = terrain

Read my previous response.



Somebody help him to get out of his misery.

Source, youre saying that man created TLOP.
How did mountains form if there wasnt man around to "create" TLOP?!

 

[CWL]

Wraith,

First, just one comment to your latest response to me to express my general feeling regarding how our conversation is going:

Now let's look at this remark of yours:

originally posted by wraith
HOW!?
Are you saying that an atom is totally in the "hands" of TLOP but when you get more atoms to come together, they tell TLOP to take a hike?

No TLOP don't take a hike. The "compound of the atoms" may behave differently than the individual atoms as such. You admitted this yourself when you admitted that a brain is more complex than a carbon atom.

You refuse to understand the point because you have already decided that TLOP is the will of a conscious entity. You are fitting facts to the theory my friend.

 

[wraith]

Anyways 1 plus 1 equals 2 in this reality, that is true, but in another reality where it was false it would be false. Stopi being simple.

How would it equal 3 in another reality?

You cannot do anything if the car gets in the way. If the door doesn't open, you can't jump out.

So if you cant get out of the car, the car is controlling you?

wraith: Are you saying that the thought to accelerate the car wasnt due to TLOP? If not, where did it come from?


DialecticDickhead: TLOP are small things, CAR is a big collection of TLOP. Think about it.

That doesnt answer my question. It doesnt even make sense. Do you want to clarify?

wraith: The evidence of that is staggering haha

Diklik: Yeah it is, your just delusional and too damn dumb to realize it. LOL.

Explain it then.

HA! So are you saying the Abyss is stronger then LD and TLOP?

what the....?

I know where it came from. So no. (had to say "so no" cause u prolly wouldn't get it.)

Where did TLOP come from?

wraith: Where did Time begin?


Dialect: When a person made a sun dial.

Before the sun dial was made, people had no sense of Time?
So why was the sun dial made in the first place?

Where did "meters" begin?

Not sure. Check the history books.

wraith: As for pure randomness, I dont see how logic can allow this.


Dialect: Look at QM. Unless you are too illiterate.

I admit that I havnt looked at it in great detail, but maybe you can shed some light?

How is "random" logical?

 

[wraith]

Wraith,

First, just one comment to your latest response to me to express my general feeling regarding how our conversation is going:

No TLOP don't take a hike. The "compound of the atoms" may behave differently than the individual atoms as such. You admitted this yourself when you admitted that a brain is more complex than a carbon atom.

You refuse to understand the point because you have already decided that TLOP is the will of a conscious entity. You are fitting facts to the theory my friend.

Yes, but the nature of an atom contribute to the nature of the compound.