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Fossil and Evolution

If "human" is defined as genus Homo then the Turkana Boy is about 90 % complete, only missing his hands and feet.

Yeah, I know about the bones and I guess I am technically wrong as they are described as fossilized remains but I had more the impression-in-rock kind of fossil. You know, the silhouette imbedded in some type of rock. I believe that's what those there creationists think of as fossils. Anyone who sat down and really thought about the exact type of conditions that have to be met to form any type of fossil would have to wonder how we have any of them not why we haven't found certain ones.

Thanks for the information, Unrepentant Sinner!
 
I am not saying this as a refutation of evolution as I believe that there are other strong independent pieces of evidence that demonstrate evolution. Rather, I am simply asking whether the evidence we claim is provided by fossils is really as strong as we would like to think it is.

It isn't just fossils alone. It is a convergence of evidence. Check out ring species if you wish to see an unbroken line from one species to another.
 
My point with the day-scaling analogy is that intermediate forms don't seem to appear close enough together even trick our senses into believing that the change is continuous (much as projecting film at ~48 frames a second tricks us into believing the motion on a movie screen is continuous). In fact for us to believe that the day-long movie of evolution is one of continuous change intermediate forms would have to occur every 1085 years (i.e., 1/48th of a second in the day-scaled world) and be morphologically close enough to one another to make the "morph" seem smooth.

I know I'm just playing with a bad analogy here, but...

The aperture shutter of the projector opens and closes 48 times per second. The film is advanced one frame 24 times per second. So we're talking about some change occurring every 2170 years which, to me, seems well within the realm of plausibility.
 
What would be the best way of demonstrating that my question is genuine?

FWIW I think your question is genuine. Mostly because a "it doesn't seem like there has been enough time" argument is completely incompatible with "all the animals were on the ark with Noah."

Fundamentalists have had to argue that the variety of animals on the ark was fewer than we have today and they subsequently "micro-evolved" into the variety we see today (even though such micro-evolution has somehow, mysteriously, resulted in speciation). That proposes a rate of evolution faster than anything evolution proponents have imagined.
 
mijopaalmc said:
I'm sorry if this post is confusing but I am trying to understand the creationist (or ID) position by think thinking like an creationist (or ID proponent).
JoeTheJuggler said:
Why would you want to do that? It seems sort of like aspiring to think about numbers like a child who doesn't understand mathematics. What use is that?
'Cos we might want to know the answer.
To what? Are you interested in evolution or how creationists think?



Now, if you have nothing better to do than to pretend that the best question asked about evolution on this forum in years is the product of some lying gutter creationist then I can tell you what to do with yourself and the horse you rode in on.
As has been pointed out, about the only real question mijopaalmc puts forth is the time scale issue which is certainly nothing new at all. And he did say he wanted to think like a creationist. How is "thinking like a creationist" different than being a creationist?

ARE YOU ALL FREAKIN' NUTS?
No. Did you honestly think everyone in a skeptics' forum would be willing to "think like a creationist" in order to discuss evolution?

We are skeptics. We've just been asked --- how do we know?

And he has been offered some very fine resources that provide the overwhelming case for evolution by natural selection and easily shows the problems (fallacies) with creationist claims. Seriously, there's not even a debate going on as to evolution by natural selection as the fundamental organizing principle of the entire field of biology.
 
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Anyway after pondering the continuity of evolution that is claimed to be demonstrated by the fossil record, I still come up again the conceptual obstacle that, when the lifetime of the Earth is scaled to take place over a day, evolutionary events take place over time periods that are long enough that it seems that one wouldn't necessarily accept entities separated the various intervals of time to have arisen from one another. For instance, if one were to set a candle on a table, look away for 1.92 seconds, which is 100,000 years in the analogy to evolution, and turn around to see a more ornate or just different shaped candlestick, one would not assume that one candlestick "evolved" into another candlestick but that someone had replaced one candlestick with the other.

I don't follow the argument here. It's an argument based on what assumptions someone would make by looking away from an object for 1.92 seconds to see another object there. But 1.92 seconds is only an analogy. Many more things can happen in 100,000 years than in 1.92 seconds. My mind relates to those spans of time very differently.

I have a 1:25,000,000 map of North America in front of me, and I can cover the state of Missouri with my thumb. So what? It's not an argument about how my mind really relates to the size of Missouri.
 
For instance, if one were to set a candle on a table, look away for 1.92 seconds, which is 100,000 years in the analogy to evolution, and turn around to see a more ornate or just different shaped candlestick, one would not assume that one candlestick "evolved" into another candlestick but that someone had replaced one candlestick with the other.
But if you checked every couple seconds and saw the candlestick slowly shaped in a step by step way, you'd probably conclude that over that time the candlestick melted into that shape. This conclusion would be supported if, no matter how much you looked, you couldn't find any trace of the second candlestick before the 1.92 seconds or the first candle stick after the 1.92 seconds.
 
I apologize if he mijo... was sincere. Yes, it is common to get dishonest people pretending to be skeptics from the creationist camp. The candle question even sounds like a question they would ask.

But I actually gave a detailed answer to the question, but it didn't post for some reason, and I can't find it. But I'll sum it up. If you look out your window and see green grass, and then look out later and see a little pile of leaves where the green grass was and then a bigger pile of leaves... you don't assume that the grass turned into the leaves...nor do you assume that someone exchanged a small pile for a big pile.

Fossils are patchy--but the DNA is really clear. We can see the code of life in all current life forms and extrapolate backwards. We can look at the DNA for some extinct life forms. And just as you wouldn't need a complete leaf analysis to understand that the pile of leaves came from the leaves falling of the tree--you shouldn't need to think much to see that what we observe comes from that which came before. With fossils we have to wait and see what didn't degrade over the eons and then wait to see what gets discovered. And then we have to use various radiometric dating techniques to determine what time in history the fossil belongs too and reconstruct the chain of events the best we can using the evidence we've uncovered.

But the DNA tells the real story. We all have remnants of DNA from our less than human ancestors. We share many of the same design instructions as a fruit fly.

I'm not sure the fossil record will ever convince a creationist (but the DNA evidence could not be more compelling...)
 
No he isn't.

* baffled *
Well either he wasn't sure there was time to go from A to B or the other problem is he didn't understand why evolving species look like they took stair steps instead of a hill.

So I'll add one more mechanism of evolution to the mix. Species evolve continually. And as a group they also continue to intermingle their mutations so the changes remain distributed among the whole. It isn't until a group of the species splits off but in addition becomes isolated from the group that you get new species evolving. When two groups from one species become isolated, the mutations no longer keep mixing. The longer they are isolated the more different each group becomes from the other.

It takes a very long time and the differences in humans on this planet makes a great example of just how long that is.

As humans migrated to different latitudes on the planet, skin color changed. In our outward appearance we began to look different. Had we remained isolated from each other for many more thousands of years, we may have actually evolved into different races.

But, it turns out when you look at the genetic diversity of the human race, we only differ from each other by a very small amount. The amount of DNA which gives us different appearances is too small to actually distinguish different races. Outwardly it looks like we are of different races, but you could decide to call people with different blood types different races and you'd have the same arbitrary divides.

The aboriginals in Australia split off from the group in Africa ~60,000 years ago. Yet they still have the same essential genetic makeup as everyone else. Chimpanzees and Bonobos had common ancestors much further back than human ethnic groups. Chimps and Bonobos were separated by a huge river. That isolation and greater time did produce two distinct but closely related species of primates.

And that, Mijo, is how new species come to look so different from their closest relatives.


:D
 
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Well either he wasn't sure there was time to go from A to B or the other problem is he didn't understand why evolving species looks like they took stair steps instead of a hill.

Isn't that a bit of a false dilemma? Could you have simply have misunderstood the question? Or could the question have been so poorly stated in the first that it really wasn't worth answering in any meaningful sort of way?:p :D
 
Did my "implication" offend you? Very well, let me rephrase that, borrowing your own terminology.

Your statements are worded in such a way which could be construed as being too stupid or too close-minded to understand the question. I'd love to be shown that you aren't too stupid or too close-minded to understand the question.

Dr. A., if you disagree with the claim that the OP is similar to a tactic often used by creationists, then say so. I don't think you do, however, and I think you are now just arguing for the sake of it. Fine, continue to think I claimed he was lying, and continue to think I am too stupid and close-minded to understand the question. I don't really care.

There, that took all the sting out of it, didn't it?

Yes, actually, because I think there is ample evidence elsewhere on these forums that I understand evolution perfectly well, and would have no trouble understanding this question. However, continue to think whatever you wish.

That is a distinction without a difference.

No, it isn't. Epistemology deals with the nature of knowledge, not with the nature of how we obtain knowledge. The fundamental question of the OP is not "what is the ultimate nature of our knowledge", it is "how did we come about our knowledge". In particular, he is asking how we make a causal link between fossil records and a change from one species to another over time. It has nothing (or very little) to do with epistemology.
 
Isn't that a bit of a false dilemma? Could you have simply have misunderstood the question? Or could the question have been so poorly stated in the first that it really wasn't worth answering in any meaningful sort of way?:p :D

Perhaps you would like to restate your question in a different manor, then? As I said, I am more then willing to answer specific questions about evolution, and far as your OP stands, it is not a very specific question.

You seem to be saying that, just becuase we have fossils of different forms, and there are very few 'intermediate' fossils, that you do not understand how we can 'fill the gaps', so to speak, with species evolving from one form to another. You do not see evidence that one species gives rise to another in the fossil record.

Is my interpretation correct?
 
No, it isn't. Epistemology deals with the nature of knowledge, not with the nature of how we obtain knowledge. The fundamental question of the OP is not "what is the ultimate nature of our knowledge", it is "how did we come about our knowledge". In particular, he is asking how we make a causal link between fossil records and a change from one species to another over time. It has nothing (or very little) to do with epistemology.

OK, then how classify a question that deals how we know something is due to a causal link or how we know what constitutes causality?

To use a common trope, here is what Wikipedia says epistemology is:

Epistemology or theory of knowledge is the branch of philosophy that studies the nature and scope of knowledge and belief. The term "epistemology" is based on the Greek words "ἐπιστήμη or episteme" (knowledge or science) and "λόγος or logos" (account/explanation); it was introduced into English by the Scottish philosopher James Frederick Ferrier (1808-1864).[1]

Much of the debate in this field has focused on analyzing the nature of knowledge and how it relates to similar notions such as truth, belief, and justification. It also deals with the means of production of knowledge, as well as skepticism about different knowledge claims. In other words, epistemology primarily addresses the following questions: "What is knowledge?", "How is knowledge acquired?", and "What do people know?".

There are many different topics, stances, and arguments in the field of epistemology. Recent studies have dramatically challenged centuries-old assumptions, and the discipline therefore continues to be vibrant and dynamic.
(emphases mine)
 
OK, then how classify a question that deals how we know something is due to a causal link or how we know what constitutes causality?
Since you're spiraling toward sophism, I regret my attempt to honestly answer your question.
 
I think the most frustrating aspect of this whole conversation is that people seem to approach the question with a series of pat answers which in truth really don't answer the question as it was originally posed.

I admit that the analogy that I originally presented was at best poor and at worse false and misleading, but it seem that people have chosen with unfailing regularity to quote it, ignoring the fact that I had already acknowledged, in the very first post, that it failed in several important aspects. However, the aspect that I was trying to emphasize with the analogy, the perception of the continuity of evolution (absent all of the creationist baggage that has now been attached to it), still stands and has not been answered adequately: how can we claim that the extant evidence that we have from the incomplete fossil record at this very moment (not the hypothesized evidence that we assume would be availible to us from a complete fossil record) presents eivdence for the continuity of evolution?

People have answered variously with "intermediate forms" and "not enough time", which is strange because I dont think I implied that I was ever talking about a big jump in development, just a big jump in time (e.g., 1-2 million years when considering cetacean evloution, specifically the gap in the fossil record between Pakicetus and Ambulocetus or between Ambulocetus and Dalanistes). My point has mainly been that our claims to knowledge seem to far outstrip the current state of evidence, not that this discrepancy will never be resolved or that it even severly undermines evolution (both of which I don't believe). Thus, it seems that skeptics (as most of us are) would want to make conservative claims to knowledge based on the evidence.

In sum, I am not questioning the existence of evolution but rather the representation of evolution as continuous given the cureent extant evidence. Moreover, I am looking for a way to explain how the fossil record demonstrates the continutiy of evolution given its current fragmentary state.
 
OK, then how classify a question that deals how we know something is due to a causal link or how we know what constitutes causality?

To use a common trope, here is what Wikipedia says epistemology is:

(emphases mine)

Ok, this is not how I would define epistemology (nor is it how epistemology was defined to me during my Philosophy course), but for the sake of argument, I defer to that and retract my previous statement.
 
I think the most frustrating aspect of this whole conversation is that people seem to approach the question with a series of pat answers which in truth really don't answer the question as it was originally posed.

I fail to see how it hasn't.

I admit that the analogy that I originally presented was at best poor and at worse false and misleading, but it seem that people have chosen with unfailing regularity to quote it, ignoring the fact that I had already acknowledged, in the very first post, that it failed in several important aspects. However, the aspect that I was trying to emphasize with the analogy, the perception of the continuity of evolution (absent all of the creationist baggage that has now been attached to it), still stands and has not been answered adequately: how can we claim that the extant evidence that we have from the incomplete fossil record at this very moment (not the hypothesized evidence that we assume would be availible to us from a complete fossil record) presents eivdence for the continuity of evolution?

This is why it is not an epistemic problem. Epistemology deals with how one comes about knowledge, not how one comes about specific knowledge. But as I said above, I retract my previous statement to stop a derail of this thread.

I will, for the moment, assume that you only mean the fossil record, and are not concerned about the mountain of other evidence which supports the continuity of evolution (see population and evolutionary genetics, the molecular genetics of mutations, ecology, etc). So your question becomes, in essence, "how do we fill the gaps".

This question is actually quite important, and one which I honestly would have assumed you would have had answered in the course of your three undergraduate degrees (I certainly did during mine). But that aside, we have to look at the various explanations we have for the fossil record.

On the one hand, when viewing the fossil record, we could assume that each fossil represents an organism which is un-causally linked to any other fossil. This is fine, it is just as good an assumption as any up to this point. However, we then have to question how these organisms came about, if they were not causally linked. The only assumption we can make is that these organisms just magically 'appeared' out of nowhere.

I hope you can see that such an assumption is absurd. We know that things do not "just appear out of nowhere". We also know that, thought selective breeding pressures, we can drastically change the form of an organism within recorded human history. See the banana, for example, or the more extreme breeds of dog. Thus, we know that selective pressures, acting on existing variation within a population, can lead to the changing of morphological characteristics.

Now we must re-evaluate our two possible assumptions with regard to the fossil record. Either the fossils are independent, and thus arose by "magically appearing out of nowhere", or there is a causal connection between the two. Since we know that selective pressures can lead to drastic morphological changes to an organism, we know that the changes we observe could be due to natural selection.

Armed with this, we then go about testing the theory, by forming a hypothesis and then testing it. For example, the hypothesis that there would be found 'intermediate forms' in the fossil record, even if they are rare. And, what do you know, but they have been found. And ever since, nothing in the fossil record is inconsistant with evolutionary theory. This alone is evidential support for the theory. The fossil record does not falsify the theory, and follows the predictions made by the theory, thus it adds support to the theory.

Does that make sense?

People have answered variously with "intermediate forms" and "not enough time", which is strange because I dont think I implied that I was ever talking about a big jump in development, just a big jump in time (e.g., 1-2 million years when considering cetacean evloution, specifically the gap in the fossil record between Pakicetus and Ambulocetus or between Ambulocetus and Dalanistes). My point has mainly been that our claims to knowledge seem to far outstrip the current state of evidence, not that this discrepancy will never be resolved or that it even severly undermines evolution (both of which I don't believe). Thus, it seems that skeptics (as most of us are) would want to make conservative claims to knowledge based on the evidence.

Not true at all. The very fact that the current fossil record does not falsify the theory of evolution is support in and of itself for the theory. Furthermore, the sheer amount of evidence for evolution is so completely overwhelming, that to deny it is paramount to denying atomic theory.

In sum, I am not questioning the existence of evolution but rather the representation of evolution as continuous given the cureent extant evidence. Moreover, I am looking for a way to explain how the fossil record demonstrates the continutiy of evolution given its current fragmentary state.

Again, see 'intermediate forms'. These are entirely consistant with, and were predicted by, the theory of evolution. Furthermore, the theory of evolution predicts that like organisms will have like characteristics. Funnily enough this is exactly what we find. Moreover, the theory of evolution, coupled with current geological and physical theories, predicts that the fossil record will be patchy. To find otherwise would falsify a large amount of geological theory. A lack of evidence is not evidence for a lack of a theory.
 
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Ok, this is not how I would define epistemology (nor is it how epistemology was defined to me during my Philosophy course), but for the sake of argument, I defer to that and retract my previous statement.

Out of curiosity what textbook did you use?

The definition of epistemology that I cited seems to be pretty standard across the philosophy of science video lecture courses that I have consulted.
 
It's a perfectly reasonable question.

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The analogy with the candlestick is a poor one. You should conclude that someone had swapped candlesticks, but only because you already know that candlesticks can't change shape.

Let's offer a more accurate analogy.

---

You are shown a schematic of a lava lamp, taught the laws of hydrodynamics, etc.

Based on this, you arrive at the theory that the state of the lava lamp should change over time in certain ways.

You are then permitted to observe it for a day, but only in the form of still pictures taken once every 1.92 seconds.

You find that it looks different every time that you look at it.

You find that the patterns you see in the lava lamp, and also the sequence of patterns, are entirely consistent with your theories about the lava lamp.

You never see any evidence of anyone changing one lava lamp for another.

Should you conclude:

(a) Your theory was correct.

(b) Someone replaces the lava lamp with a different one every 1.92 seconds.

---

I hope this helps.

Nominated.

By the way, I don't really see the point of all the posts concerning mijo's honesty. Whether he's honest or not, why not just pay attention to the issue? Only when his honesty impinges upon the issue is there any good reason to bring it up, and it clearly hasn't. But now here I am talking about this too...

Anyway, I find the question to be a good one, and I'm glad for DrA's posts which answered it more clearly than I could have.

Mijo, I'm curious what you think of the posts DrA made in this thread. Do you think he answered the question you posed?
 

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