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Flu Shots

Its amazing how much the language we use can influence the assumptions we make. We don't have the term "stomach flu" here - we usually call it a tummy bug or just "sickness and diarrhea". So nobody thinks it has anything to do with the flu, or assumes that a flu shot would prevent it.
 
Its amazing how much the language we use can influence the assumptions we make. We don't have the term "stomach flu" here - we usually call it a tummy bug or just "sickness and diarrhea". So nobody thinks it has anything to do with the flu, or assumes that a flu shot would prevent it.

When I first heard the term 'stomach flu' used in American films I thought it was a different condition to what we in the UK call a tummy bug. Stomach flu sounds far more severe.

Amazing how you often go off the last thing you ate before you vomit, even if it had nothing to do with causing the illness.
 
Sometimes it is referred to as 'Gastric flu' in the UK, rather than a tummy bug.

I remember going to Boston several years ago now. They are famous for Clam Chowder there and at lunchtime of the day I was due to fly back to the UK, I stopped and had some for lunch. I then got on a night flight back to the UK and was served Salmon.

I landed at about 7.15 am UK time. I was very tired, so when I got home, went to bed and slept and woke up later feeling very unwell with violent stomach pains and diarrhoea that put me out of action for a week.

Now, I am not exactly sure whether I was poisoned by British Airways salmon, but I have most definitely not eatan Clam Chowder since that time.
 
Well, I remember that during my last flu I puked a few times. It's not because I had nausea - it's because that I was coughing so much it ended up bringing my lunch up a couple times.
 
Sometimes it is referred to as 'Gastric flu' in the UK, rather than a tummy bug.

I remember going to Boston several years ago now. They are famous for Clam Chowder there and at lunchtime of the day I was due to fly back to the UK, I stopped and had some for lunch. I then got on a night flight back to the UK and was served Salmon.

I landed at about 7.15 am UK time. I was very tired, so when I got home, went to bed and slept and woke up later feeling very unwell with violent stomach pains and diarrhoea that put me out of action for a week.

Now, I am not exactly sure whether I was poisoned by British Airways salmon, but I have most definitely not eatan Clam Chowder since that time.
I thought you said you had a strong immune system?
 
Well, I remember that during my last flu I puked a few times. It's not because I had nausea - it's because that I was coughing so much it ended up bringing my lunch up a couple times.
I almost feel like puking just thinking about it.
 
I do. This happened at least 10 years ago now.
I don't follow your logic. Was your immune system different 10 years ago?

Your immune sytem is dictated by your genes, so for it to change would mean your genes have changed. What does happen is that as you get exposed to more pathogens your immune system gets educated, so that in your example the food poisoning you experienced would be less severe if you were exposed to the same pathogenic organism at a later date. So you may be confusing a strong immune system (which has no meaning) with what comes naturally with age (or vaccination).
 
I had some sort of gastric bug for the first time ever this year, and it didn't occur to me to think of it as any kind of flu. I did feel like I might die though, which was interesting. Not as interesting as the dark blue vomit I was unhappily offloading into a bucket at 4am. NHS Direct asked if I'd swallowed any household cleaning products...
 
I had to give a basic lecture on elementary immunology and vaccinations today. I found myself from time to time addressing Physiotherapist's fallacies, and explaining to the students that this was a common misconception, and why it wasn't like that.

I don't know whether this was a good thing or not!

My best bit, though, was when I explained to them about subunit vaccines, and the number of antigens in a vaccine course compared to the number of antigens on the surface of one streptococcus bacterium, and why it was that anyone claiming that a child's immune system could be overloaded simply did not understand the first thing about the subject.

Rolfe.
 
Hi Rolfe,
When doing historical research, I came across the theory that one reason so many people died of the Black Death when it came roaring into Europe in the 1300s is because there had been flooding and famine about 20 years earlier. As a result of the bad weather, failed crops and generally miserable conditions, lots of people were "sickly" and died easily.

Obviously, it was a disease to which most people had no resistance, but still, some people didn't die, some people got sick but survived, so there had to be variation in the ability of the immune system to cope. And yes, I know some people weren't exposed and that was why they didn't die.

Just curious. How does outright malnutrition during some period of early life affect the functioning of the immune system for the rest of a person's life? Has this been studied? There are, unfortunately, large numbers of candidates available throughout the world for such a study.
 
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When doing historical research, I came across the theory that one reason so many people died of the Black Death when it came roaring into Europe in the 1300s is because there had been flooding and famine about 20 years earlier. As a result of the bad weather, failed crops and generally miserable conditions, lots of people were "sickly" and died easily.
Has your historical research uncovered further confirmation for this hypothesis by establishing whether malnourishment may have played a role in other events such as the plague of Justinian in 541 AD (which, at its height, killed 10,000 a day in Constantinople), or the Antonine Plague of 165 - 180 AD (which may have killed as many as 5,000 a day in Rome)? Does it seem reasonable to postulate that poor nutrition was a primary causal agent in every single one of the epidemic events which have so often been noted to follow first encounters between Europeans and indigenous populations in the Americas or the Pacific?
 
I'm not aware of any clearly-demonstrated link in animals between malnutrition in early life and later susceptibility to infection, but I can ask around. It's exactly the sort of thing I'd expect a bunch of academic agricultural experts to know. I do recall when I was a student, an elderly vet telling me that during the war there were a couple of years which were very tight indeed and most of the youngstock bred then were malnourished, however they recovered well in the end.

Rolfe.
 
What does malnutrition or nutrition have to do with flu shots??
An argument often heard from opponents of vaccination is that such factors as nutrition, hygene, and overall health best explain individual variation in susceptibility to illness. Declines in diseases evidence the impact of modern methods of hygene, etc; despite the degree to which those declines correlate with increased vaccine coverage. And of course neither our ancestors nor any of the people in undeveloped places where diseases still thrive ever heard about the importance of a diet including lots of fresh fruits and vegetables, or the value of fresh air and sunshine and physical activity.
 
Ah, I see where this is going then. It's tough luck for the young and old (most susceptible to death or irreparable damage), we're not going to vaccinate anymore. If you survive your babyhood and toddlerhood with all the usual diseases, then you can live with the consequences until you die of secondary diseases after contracting the flu in your elder years. Sounds like fun. Age is a factor, not just nutrition. Age is more of a factor than nutrition. That is why vaccines exist, to protect those that need it most.

Thing is, even in the old days before vaccines there were people who found some diseases were tamer one year. They would try to get it that year, because they knew it wouldn't kill them, and they were protected the next time it came around. It's not hard to figure out you only get it once. This happened with smallpox. Then Jenner figured out cowpox was even milder.

We tackled smallpox before getting onto tough ones - like the flu that changes every year too much for us to gain long-term protection by getting it "naturally".

In the 1700s 1/3 of children died of smallpox before they were three. Others were blinded & pockmarked. Now we have no clue how bad it was. In 1801 people were lining up to get vaccinia scratched into their skin.

Other diseases with known fatality rates are also kept in check with modern vaccines. It's far too easy to take vaccines for granted.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I don't know where I learned that, but I so get what it means. People who would rather try to stamp out a fire once it starts will get burned.

http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?article24466

It is no coincidence that vaccinated children survive, but the unvaccinated die.
 
How does outright malnutrition during some period of early life affect the functioning of the immune system for the rest of a person's life? Has this been studied? There are, unfortunately, large numbers of candidates available throughout the world for such a study.

Yes, and indeed we do know that malnutrition and undernourishment lead to decreased immune response.

http://books.google.com/books?id=IA...ts=EogukZA1TE&sig=3KgAlo9XTi4CmkmYwH6hnJ_qSIY

Malnutrition during pregnancy can effect much later events as well, including immune system problems etc
 
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What does that have to do with flu shots? The people that the flu kills the most are not malnourished, they are just very young or getting older.
 
Gotta wonder what sort of "informed consent" we have going on, when someone can get a flu shot and not even know what the shot actually prevents! A bit of a communication problem, perhaps:eye-poppi?
Why would you assume (wrongly) because people are misinformed about flu in general that the people providing the vaccinations aren't giving the accurate information at the time of the shots?

In this country a VIS (Vaccine information statement) is required to be given, by law whenever vaccines are given.

Current influenza VIS, inactivated vaccine

Current influenza VIS, live intranasal vaccine
 
Well, I remember that during my last flu I puked a few times. It's not because I had nausea - it's because that I was coughing so much it ended up bringing my lunch up a couple times.
That's a classic symptom of pertussis (whooping cough), not influenza.

Specificity is 45%-84% according to this article meaning posttussive vomiting is diagnostic for pertussis 45%-84% of the time.
 
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