Flu Shots

[JJM]

{snip} It is not anecdote and can all be proved by simple blood tests.

Blood tests are fact.

Great, cite the medical studies that support your claims.

Remember, you have made many, disparate claims. They include notions about immune function, vitamin/mineral deficiencies, and susceptibility to disease (which can be different from immune function). You might like to select one notion at a time.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

Aww man, this sinus infection I've been fighting off for a few days is still hanging around. So, I do have a headache and some queasiness, but am sure it is more to do with the yellow boogers I've been blowing for 4 days now. I have the afternoon off tomorrow, so if the sinuses are still getting progressively worse then I'll have to drag myself into a walk-in.

My nose hurts. My arm is fine though.

 

[Physiotherapist]

I still don't see the point in getting a flu jab if I have never had flu. I really don't see any reason to start now, especially as they don't give you full protection against all strains out there. What is the point. To my mind it is a waste of money and time.

 

[JJM]

I still don't see the point in getting a flu jab if I have never had flu. {snip}

So. I guess you have no valid information behind your dubious claims. Have you not realized that unsupported speculation does not impress? Why do you post here? Is it gratifying even though you cannot answer your critics?

Addressing your immediate post- the point of vaccination is not to prevent the flu you never had, it is to prevent the flu you might get. Duh. It can also prevent you from giving the flu to someone who might be vulnerable. In the "States," that would include the patients of physical therapists.

 

[ZirconBlue]

Far from it Rolfe!!!

Why do you think the obesity epidemic is growing? There are people out there who do eat lots of processed food, fish and chips and MacDonalds on a daily basis, week in week out and year in year out. They don't seem to know any better and this coupled with a lack of exercise signals obesity and vitamin and mineral deficiencies with everything in the body working less efficiently.

Did you ever watch Supersize Me? This American guy lived on MacDonalds food for a whole month. He had a cardiologist and a DO who were looking after him during this time and he underwent a full medical exam and had bloods taken beforehand and everything was in normal range. After a month, his weight had increased by 2 stones, his cholesterol, which was normal before had increased to about 6 and most worrying was his liver enzymes, which had increased to dangerous levels, as if he had been consuming too much alcohol. The medics informed him that if he had continued this diet he would have had liver damage. By the end of the month, he felt unwell, had poor skin and had no energy whatsoever. Once he went back to his normal diet and started to exercise again, he felt better and did eventually loose the excess weight that he had put on.

This is an extreme example, but there are people like this around and couch potatoes who eat a very poor diet all the time that is highly processed, with a lot of saturated fat and sugar can be at risk of obesity, diabetes, stroke, heart attack and vitamin and mineral deficiencies because they can not get what they need from the quality of the food they are eating.

I do believe the saying that "you are what you eat".

I am lucky in my work as a Physical Therapist and Sports Massage Therapist, that I do a lot of work with athletes who are in very good physical shape. They like to keep that way too.

So no Rolfe, it is no a lot of "woo-woo nonsense" as you put it. It is a sad fact and a reality of life.

What does any of this have to due with the immune system? Is obesity a communicable disease?

 

[Rolfe]

Far from it Rolfe!!!

Why do you think the obesity epidemic is growing? There are people out there who do eat lots of processed food, fish and chips and MacDonalds on a daily basis, week in week out and year in year out. They don't seem to know any better and this coupled with a lack of exercise signals obesity and vitamin and mineral deficiencies with everything in the body working less efficiently.

Did you ever watch Supersize Me? This American guy lived on MacDonalds food for a whole month. He had a cardiologist and a DO who were looking after him during this time and he underwent a full medical exam and had bloods taken beforehand and everything was in normal range. After a month, his weight had increased by 2 stones, his cholesterol, which was normal before had increased to about 6 and most worrying was his liver enzymes, which had increased to dangerous levels, as if he had been consuming too much alcohol. The medics informed him that if he had continued this diet he would have had liver damage. By the end of the month, he felt unwell, had poor skin and had no energy whatsoever. Once he went back to his normal diet and started to exercise again, he felt better and did eventually loose the excess weight that he had put on.

This is an extreme example, but there are people like this around and couch potatoes who eat a very poor diet all the time that is highly processed, with a lot of saturated fat and sugar can be at risk of obesity, diabetes, stroke, heart attack and vitamin and mineral deficiencies because they can not get what they need from the quality of the food they are eating.

I do believe the saying that "you are what you eat".

I am lucky in my work as a Physical Therapist and Sports Massage Therapist, that I do a lot of work with athletes who are in very good physical shape. They like to keep that way too.

So no Rolfe, it is no a lot of "woo-woo nonsense" as you put it. It is a sad fact and a reality of life.

Total lack of facts here I'm afraid.

The reasons for the obesity epidemic are many, but I would agree that lack of exercise is right up there at the top. We're actually eating less than our ancestors, just burning off far less. However, that's not what you were claiming. You were claiming that the exercise you took was enough to give you effective protection from flu, without needing a vaccine. And that your "healthy" diet, with all those fruits and vegetables and nuts and seeds, also added to this protection.

Still waiting for the evidence.

Of course I've seen Supersize Me. Twice. Fascinating. Much of what Morgan Spurlock suffered was attributable to his very sudden change of diet, and there was evidence that his body was beginning to cope with it by the second month. He also featured one guy who had eaten innumerable Big Macs (without the chips) for many years and was fine. However, such an extreme situation is not comparable to your original claim.

Ivor the Engineer's citation is interesting, but hardly conclusive.

Now, Physiotherapist. Are you saying that because you are not a couch potato existing on junk food then you won't get flu? Are you saying that your special diet of squirrel things protects you, as compared to any other ordinary Joe who eats regular non-junk food? Are you saying that the exercise you take protects you?

Shifting the argument to extremes of poor nutrition is not an answer.

Rolfe.

 

[Dymanic]

I still don't see the point in getting a flu jab if I have never had flu. I really don't see any reason to start now, especially as they don't give you full protection against all strains out there. What is the point. To my mind it is a waste of money and time.

I don't know how things are where you live, but I paid zip for mine, and it took all of five minutes. If you don't see the point, take a closer look at what JJM just said. Immune function and susceptibility are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[Rolfe]

I still don't see the point in getting a flu jab if I have never had flu. I really don't see any reason to start now, especially as they don't give you full protection against all strains out there. What is the point. To my mind it is a waste of money and time.

The enormity of the lack of understanding of the principles of the flu vaccination implicit in that post is jaw-dropping.

And, like Dynamic, I paid zip for mine, I was allowed time off work to go get it, and I've had zero adverse effects. (The arm the nurse shot with the pneumococcus vaccine is still tender, that's all. Otherwise nothing at all.)

I suspect the tales of adverse reactions to this vaccine are to a large extent examples of nocebo that Robinson was going on about in another thread. Expect a bad reaction from a vaccine and you'll either worry yourself into it, imagine yourself into it, or attribute something completely coincidental to it.

Rolfe.

 

[Physiotherapist]

The better your diet is at providing everything that you need from it and with regular exercise, the more efficiently your body will function and this includes the immune system.

The evidence speaks for itself in that I have not had flu since childhood - as stated before some 25 to 30 years ago.

Nuts, seeds and grains are a good way of getting lots of essential nutrients.

 

[Capsid]

The better your diet is at providing everything that you need from it and with regular exercise, the more efficiently your body will function and this includes the immune system.

The evidence speaks for itself in that I have not had flu since childhood - as stated before some 25 to 30 years ago.

Nuts, seeds and grains are a good way of getting lots of essential nutrients.

That's not boosting the immune system though; it's helping it to work optimally. You can't magically make your immune system better.

 

[Rolfe]

And one person not having flu since childhood is hardly evidence of anything at all. Remember my Uncle Herb?

Rolfe.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

And one person not having flu since childhood is hardly evidence of anything at all.

I disagree completely!

It's either evidence of them:
A. Having been raised in a hermetically sealed bubble or box since childhood
or (and more likely)
B. Not being able to discern between flu symptoms and cold symptoms and claiming that times they have had the flu were actually the cold.

Of course C, D, E and F include being full of **** and a couple of other options, but they'd be more conclusive than evidentiary.

I will grudingly agree with one point Physio tried to make assuming he's under 40 - getting the vaccine is an overprecaution unless we have a killer strain. Since I'm only 39 I've chosen to forgo the vaccine and will do so for the next year or couple. He's free to continue doing so into his 40s, but I hope someone close to him will avoid mentioning the irony in his obituary.

 

[Dymanic]

Not being able to discern between flu symptoms and cold symptoms and claiming that times they have had the flu were actually the cold.

That's a mistake a lot of people make, but it's usually the other way around.

getting the vaccine is an overprecaution unless we have a killer strain

If we have a "killer strain", all bets are off. When a virus emerges which has antigens very much different from those of any previously encountered strain, immune memory specific to those strains doesn't help much (whether it was aquired through infection or vaccination), so more people get sick, and more of them get sicker. In other words, while it is possible for a pandemic strain to possess some unique properties making it particularly virulent, this isn't necessarily a requirement; theoretically, a significant antigenic shift alone would be enough to cause a pandemic.

The last killer strain (the H1N1 virus which caused the "Spanish Flu" pandemic of 1918) was especially tough on the very young and the very old, pregnant women, and those with pre-existing health problems -- just as is the case with ordinary seasonal flu. But it also affected previously healthy young adults in disproportionate numbers, leading many theorists to propose that a major factor was the so-called "cytokine storm", wherein a particularly robust cell-mediated immune response becomes disregulated and a positive feedback loop insues, causing an out-of-control proliferation of a class of proteins which (in addition to promoting inflammation) serve as chemical messengers (one of the messages being: "send more chemical messengers").

So, in the face of a pandemic, optimal immune fitness (whatever that is) may in fact be a distinct disadvantage. The system just doesn't seem to be designed to handle that; it seems (to me) that it assumes that a effective humoral response will develop before the cell-mediated response does too much damage. If that doesn't happen within a certain time, the cell-mediated response never gets the signal to stand down, and it becomes a toss-up as to whether it will be that response that kills the host (through inflammation, cell death, and accumulation of detritus in the lungs), or the activities of the virus itself (as it infects more and more cells, co-opting more and more of their resources for its replication rather than their own vital functions).

 

[Acleron]

theoretically, a significant antigenic shift alone would be enough to cause a pandemic.

But this very much less likely. The infection by flu virus at present occurs in those people who do not recognise the antigens, the virulence must be the deciding factor.

 

[Physiotherapist]

I disagree completely!

It's either evidence of them:
A. Having been raised in a hermetically sealed bubble or box since childhood
or (and more likely)
B. Not being able to discern between flu symptoms and cold symptoms and claiming that times they have had the flu were actually the cold.

Of course C, D, E and F include being full of **** and a couple of other options, but they'd be more conclusive than evidentiary.

I will grudingly agree with one point Physio tried to make assuming he's under 40 - getting the vaccine is an overprecaution unless we have a killer strain. Since I'm only 39 I've chosen to forgo the vaccine and will do so for the next year or couple. He's free to continue doing so into his 40s, but I hope someone close to him will avoid mentioning the irony in his obituary.

No, I was not raised in a 'bubble' and lived a normal life. I went to school and had all the childhood illnesses.

Of course I can distinguish the difference between flu and a cold and it was flu that I had.

I have had quite a few colds over the years, that have not really stopped me doing anything, but not flu. I do know the difference.

Yes, I am still under 40, but what has being in your 40's got to with having flu vaccinations or anything for that matter?

 

[Capsid]

I don't think you can be absolutely certain that you had the flu unless you had a test to confirm this at the time. There are many, many viruses that would give you flu like symptoms. If you were laid up in bed for about a week then that could have been flu.

 

[MosheJW]

I remember reading once that repeated use of antibiotics makes your immune system "lazy" and less capable of dealing with pathogens on it's own (and then when you get something, it hits you much harder...)
I really don't know much about how the immune system works, but I would think that the same problem would happen with vaccines (also against viruses).
Is this true?

 

[Acleron]

I remember reading once that repeated use of antibiotics makes your immune system "lazy" and less capable of dealing with pathogens on it's own (and then when you get something, it hits you much harder...)
I really don't know much about how the immune system works, but I would think that the same problem would happen with vaccines (also against viruses).
Is this true?

No.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

A co-worker had the flu jab eight days ago and has been off work since. She and her family are convinced she has caught the flu despite being told she was given a killed vaccine and that being an asthmatic she is prone to respiratory problems. They have obviously been misled by people making up stories and will continue to propagate the false meme to others and reduce the uptake of the vaccine.

It's called catching a virus in the line waiting for the flu shot.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think I just have an extremely good immune system and this coupled with a good quality diet and plenty of exercise seems to render me immune to most things, when others around me are falling like flies.
...

Oh yes, that's the, "we are at the top of the food chain" myth.