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Flu Shots

It seems obvious that if you are one of the few people who dies from a drug or vaccine, the benefits to you don't balance with the good done. Same for serious lifetime damage, disability, etc etc

If you look at the larger picture, drugs are good. Vaccines are good. Sure a few people are going to die, have deformed babies or suffer somehow. But most people won't, so it doesn't matter.
 
JEROME DA GNOME said:
Are vaccines stifling the progress of evolution?
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Evolution is adapation of species to survive current conditions, whatever they are. That's it.

There is no such thing as "progress" of evolution. Evolution is entirely a random thing. It has no goal, it isn't going ANYWHERE. Define precisely what you mean by that, please?

Helping the elderly to live, or the so-called "weak" to live, does NOT violate evolution. Evolution is NOT a law we have to worry about violating. It is simply a process.
 
robinson said:
Here, let me clear all this for you.
[snip]
See? Now it all makes sense. :D
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I'd hate for Jerome to get even more confused by this.

Here is really all you needed:
Originally Posted by JEROME DA GNOME
Really, so the benefit always outweighs the harm?

Originally Posted by skeptigirl
Are you referring to a single drug, or to the process of developing and introducing new drugs into the market place?

For a single drug, the evidence is often incomplete until it reaches widespread use. Since one cannot foretell those side effects prescribers are conservative using newly developed drugs. We tend to use them when existing drugs are ineffective.

The alternative would be to never introduce new drugs. So, yes the benefit of developing and introducing new drugs as a whole by far outweighs the risks. ... Are you suggesting we should halt the progress we've made in a mere 100 years because for all the benefit there has been some harm?
 
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The antivaxxers do figure kids should be killed by measles or secondary infections after getting the flu rather than get "icky" vaccines that may cause a sore arm or some allergic reaction. They figure dying of the disease is better than getting inactivated, dead, or other bits of microbes in the arm, since vaccination is "unnatural" compared breathing microbe & microbe bits in the usual way. They do suggest that flirting with disaster by getting polio "naturally" is better than the reduced risks offered by vaccination.

They will spout on forever and ever about conspiracy theories between doctors and 'big pharma'. They will suggest we're creating new niches for even deadlier microbes by building up our immune systems with vaccination.

What they ignore are all the deaths and injuries that microbes cause. They can do this because vaccines have allowed them to be blind to actual effects of diseases. It's like telling someone with scurvy they are stupid for not eating oranges since oranges are at the grocery store... thing is not everyone has access to grocery stores or oranges. Not everyone has access to vaccines either. Ask parents of dead kids what they figure the "risks" posed by vaccines are. I'm sure they'd rather have a kid with a sore arm rather than a dead kid.
In 2002, among diseases for which vaccines are universally recommended, WHO estimates that fewer than 1,000 children under 5 years died from polio;
4,000 children died from diphtheria;
15,000 children died from yellow fever; 198,000 children died from tetanus;
294,000 children died from pertussis;
386,000 children died from Hemophilus influenzae type b (Hib);
and 540,000 children died from measles.[4]
Among adults, 600,000 deaths were attributed to hepatitis B virus infections, the majority of which were acquired in childhood.
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http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/532395

To put vaccines in perspective, I quote this article:

The human immune system is remarkable in its capacity to respond to millions of different antigens. Children are exposed to many thousands of bacteria, fungi and viruses beginning at the moment of birth. In the first few months of life the human immune system responds to many foreign antigens from these organisms. Each bacterium contains hundreds of different antigens including carbohydrates, fatty substances, proteins, RNA and DNA. Children develop antibodies to 17 different proteins in one common bacterium (Moraxella catarrhalis) and a strep throat infection results in immune responses to 25-50 different antigens.1 Some new highly effective vaccines are made using only one or two bacterial antigens. For example, Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccines, or Hib as they are commonly called, contain only a single bacterial antigen attached to a protein. Children immunized with these vaccines are protected against meningitis and sepsis caused by the Haemophilus influenzae type b organism. Therefore, the immune systems of children who receive this vaccine are exposed to far fewer antigens than children naturally infected with the bacterium. Since all children would be exposed to the bacterium if they were not immunized, the use of the Hib vaccine actually reduces the burden on the immune system.

We do know that encephalitis is one of the factors that pre-disposes children to autism. All three of the diseases prevented by the MMR vaccine, measles, mumps and rubella, can cause encephalitis. We would not want to leave children unprotected against these diseases for even a short period of time. The routine use of MMR has resulted in the prevention of many thousands of cases of congenital rubella syndrome, a recognized cause of autism.
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http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/Testimony-O99.htm
 
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Well, I'm going to get a flu jag tomorrow, for the first time ever, so I'll keep you posted.

Last year we were all told at work to get the vaccination because of the avian flu work we do here, but the call came late and for one reason or another I never actually got it. This year, my mother asked me to enquire of our new medical practice whether the district nurse could make a house call to give her hers. When I called, I mentioned the possibility that I might also have to have one because of the avian flu connection. The receptionist informed me that in fact, because my mother lives with me I'm classed as her "carer", and as such should be vaccinated against flu anyway. I didn't know that. I should probably have been done last year on the same grounds, but I didn't move back home until late October, after Mum had had her vaccination on that occasion.

So I'll just do it, anyway it means that if there is a later instruction at work that those dealing with avian surveillance shoulf be done, I've pre-empted it. So I'm going to show up at the vaccination clinic tomorrow lunchtime, with mother in tow.

Any ill effects, you will be told!

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Well, I'm going to get a flu jag tomorrow, for the first time ever, so I'll keep you posted.

Last year we were all told at work to get the vaccination because of the avian flu work we do here, but the call came late and for one reason or another I never actually got it. This year, my mother asked me to enquire of our new medical practice whether the district nurse could make a house call to give her hers. When I called, I mentioned the possibility that I might also have to have one because of the avian flu connection. The receptionist informed me that in fact, because my mother lives with me I'm classed as her "carer", and as such should be vaccinated against flu anyway. I didn't know that. I should probably have been done last year on the same grounds, but I didn't move back home until late October, after Mum had had her vaccination on that occasion.

So I'll just do it, anyway it means that if there is a later instruction at work that those dealing with avian surveillance shoulf be done, I've pre-empted it. So I'm going to show up at the vaccination clinic tomorrow lunchtime, with mother in tow.

Any ill effects, you will be told!

Rolfe.
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The annual vaccine offers no protection against H5N1, the strain typically referred to as "avian flu".

However, persons living with or caring for persons in the "at special risk" categories should most definitely get a flu vaccination to prevent giving the infection to the vulnerable person. Infants < 6 years cannot get the vaccine and do not all have protective levels of maternal antibody. Persons in poor health and advanced age may not respond as well to the vaccination. Both groups rely on healthy people getting vaccinated to prevent the spread of flu to them.

And, while it isn't as common, healthy children and adults die from influenza every year. Flu is one of the most underestimated threats of all the vaccine preventable diseases.

Public Health Alert - INFLUENZA DEATHS IN CHILDREN IN WESTERN AUSTRALIA - July 2007

No one seems concerned until after the fact, and past hazards are quickly forgotten.

Experts urge calm after influenza deaths - Aug 14, 2007
Parents are being warned to watch out for flu-like symptoms in their children as a virulent strain of the virus appears to have claimed the life of a sixth child.

The latest victim is a two-year-old boy from the city of Bathurst, west of Sydney, who died of a flu-related illness.

In Queensland, fears of an epidemic have prompted the State Government to release a stockpile of the antiviral drug Tamiflu to aged care homes and pharmacies.

But disease experts say parents should not panic.
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Woman's death likely to be flu: SA Health - Aug 17, 2007
The South Australian Health Department says it is likely a 48-year-old Adelaide woman died of the influenza A virus.

The woman was sent home from work sick on Monday and by Tuesday she was dead.

She tested positive to the A-strain of the flu virus.

Chris Baggoley from the Health Department says they have had more than 100 reports of the flu this month; four times that of August last year.
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skeptigirl said:
The annual vaccine offers no protection against H5N1, the strain typically referred to as "avian flu".
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Yes, I think the rationale was the concern about a pandemic flu strain possibly being produced in a human being who was infected by both ordinary epidemic flu and avian flu simultaneously. While it's far more likely this would happen in the far east than in Scotland, I imagine the PtB though it best that anyone potentially exposed to avian flu should have the extra protection against epidemic flu just in case.

Rolfe.
 
The M2 protein in influenza A strains is conserved and with whole vaccines there may be some immunisation against this protein which could help protect from pandemic flu.
 
Well, I had the flu vaccine about two-and-a-half hours ago and I feel perfectly normal.

The nurse said, where do you work?, then shot me with pneumococcus vaccine as well. I sense some crossed wires here - I don't know any veterinary or zoonotic association with pneumococcus - but as my policy is to take any vaccine they'll give me unless there are positive contraindications, I just let her do it.

Only side-effect, right arm (pneumococcus) bled all over my NWO Kitty t-shirt.

Rolfe.
 
Five hours post-vaccine, no effects at all (apart from slight tenderness felt in upper arm when shoudering open a door).

Rolfe.
 
Got my flu shot yesterday at around this time. According to the paperwork, it was .5ml of influac M20.

That, of course, means nothing to me but it might to someone else. The nice nurse who vaxed me even told me that this season they are expecting only 60-70% chance that the vaccine will be of the 'right' strain. I will take those odds over getting the flu.

Also got a little flyer telling me about the flu and that this vaccine is a dead vaccine so you can not get the flu from it. That was helpful as I did not know that.

Feeling no ill effects at all, no bruise, no bleeding nada.
 
A co-worker had the flu jab eight days ago and has been off work since. She and her family are convinced she has caught the flu despite being told she was given a killed vaccine and that being an asthmatic she is prone to respiratory problems. They have obviously been misled by people making up stories and will continue to propagate the false meme to others and reduce the uptake of the vaccine.
 
I didn't sleep well last night and woke up with a headache.

In fact this isn't at all unusual for me, I get headaches a lot, and the not sleeping well had more to do with posting late on the forum than anything else. As a result I feel a bit lousy this morning. However, I can't see any reason at all to link this with the vaccine. My upper arms (especially the right) are a little tender, but nowhere near enough to keep me awake (in fact I think I really only noticed because I was lying awake anyway), and this is essentially trivial.

However, if I wanted to make a connection, then of course I'd make it. I had the vaccine yesterday, and I feel lousy today. Post hoc, but almost certainly not propter hoc.

When I got home yesterday evening I discovered that my mother (who also had the vaccine at the same time) had cut her finger rather nastily while slicing meat. Spent some time cleaning the cut with antiseptic and applying a dressing.

Might as well blame that on the vaccine!

Rolfe.
 
Is that the best you can do! Damn it woman, I want excitement!

I haven't had a flu jab and I didn't sleep well last night either. I also feel lousy today.

At least your mother had the decency to spill some blood to make this drama a bit more interesting.
 
Oh, I spilled some blood as well. All over my nice new NWO Kitty t-shirt.

But the nice nurse gave me a sticking plaster for it.

Rolfe.
 
Well, I have not had a flu vaccination since I was at school, at least 25 years ago now and I have absolutely no intention of getting one anytime soon either. The last time I had flu that I recall was also about 25 to 30 years ago. The most I have ever had since have been a few colds and sore throats, but nothing more and these have not lasted long and have been few and far between too.
 
Well fancy that. And my old Uncle Herb lived to 106 although he smoked 40 a day.

Rolfe.
 
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