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Flight 93

Sorry, but I haven't "scuttled off" anywhere. I've read the posts, and I'm researching the data further on my own, when I have time, or when I feel like it. I run on my own schedule and no one elses.

Thanks for your well laid out, informative posts, though nothing in them has convincingly invalidated, or disproved, an inside job to me.

No doubt, Doug, when you can fit responding to the relevant posts into your schedule you'll let us know your reconsidered/confirmed interpretation of the words "over" and "overhead", as uttered by eye/sound witnesses and written by a reporter, pointing out where the counter-arguments posted here concerning such interpretation indisputably fail, keeping in mind that, so far, as expressed herein, your entire doubt about Flight 93 seems to revolve completely around such interpretation.
 
Jim Stop was fishing at Indian Lake. A plane flew over him north towards the crash site. Inside Indian Lake Marina Jim Brandt, Carol Delasko, John Fleegle, & Tom Spinelli all hear the plane fly over towards the crash site and then the impact. Indian Lake Mayor Barry Lichty can be seen talking about how Flight 93 flew over his house at Indian Lake and then ultimately stating he was told flight 93 didn't fly over his house so he don't know what plane it now was in LCFC. Val McClatchey hears Flight 93 fly over her house and manages to look outside her window in time to see it before it impacts which happens to be coming right over Lee Purbaugh who insists the plane was flying right side up when it crashed and not upside down.
Upside down would be inconsistent with the crater if the plane was coming from the South which is now determined by the accounts of Stop, Brandt, Delasko, Fleegle, Spinelli, Lichty, McClatchey, & Purbaugh.
Please feel free to explain how everyone of these witnesses is wrong about their historical accounts.
Oh yeah and let's not forget Susan McElwain's historical account which places a small white plane at a very low altitude 1 mile from the crash site flying towards it before the explosion.
Yep thats not your corporate jet 30,000 feet up descending down to 5,000 feet minutes after the crash.......
Yes Beach, please explain how all these witnesses who saw the plane are lying because they prove that there was no flight 93 since their first hand sightings of the plane prove it wasn't on the stated path and thus proving the plane they sawe with their own eyes could not have existed.
yes because Stop, Delasko, Brandt, Lichty, Fleegle, Spinelli, McClatchey, & Purbaugh's comments all support the official story, right?
Is there any evidence that the aircraft all these people heard coming over Indian Lake was actually UA93? It seems to me everyone - including them - is just assuming it was UA93.
ok gumboot,
which plane do you propose came flying low over Indian Lake losing parts (according to Jim Stop) heading towards the crash site prior to the explosion and arriving at the exact time of the explosion?
i'm all ears.
p.s. why does Lee Purbaugh insist the plane he saw crash wasn't flying upside down?

OK guys, here are some pertinent FACTS:
  1. The Flight 93 crash site is less than 6 miles from Somerset County Airport (you are all aware of that, aren't you?!). Somerset County Airport is due west of the crash site. If you mark an imaginary line from Somerset County Airport to the crash site then extend it to the east, the line actually passes over Indian Lake. Any plane that flies over Indian Lake towards the crash site is heading directly towards Somerset County Airport.
  2. Where there's a small airport there are usually small aircraft.
  3. Most non-military aircraft are white, for visibility.
  4. Notwithstanding 1., according to the FDR data plots, Flight 93 began its crash descent from around 10,000ft and continued at a constantly increasing speed. Flight 93 did not so much "fly" to the crash site as "fell"! Any possible suggestion, therefore, that the alleged small white plane at low level might have been involved is unfounded. By the time Flight 93 descended to "low level" it was already doomed.
  5. US military aircraft don't tend to be white, for the opposite reason that civil aircraft are (see 1. above.)
  6. Nobody claims to have watched an aircraft actually hit the ground. People claim EITHER to have seen an aircraft (or two) OR the after effects of an air crash, BUT NOT BOTH (Not certain - is that correct?).
Now, keeping in mind these FACTS, I suggest the truthers and doubters revisit the eye/sound witness accounts, then try convincing me that these FACTS cannot possibly account for everything that was seen/heard - not allegedly seen/heard, but actually seen/heard (what's that I hear: "We cannot say for certain what was actually seen/heard." Oh, is that right?!). The only possibly seeming anomaly is the suggestion that Jim Stop saw things falling from the plane. Do we have any evidence to corroborate this?

Incidentally, I was listening to a news report today regarding the aircraft that exploded shortly after landaing at Khartoum Airport last night. The reporter started the piece with: "There are conflicting reports as to exactly what happened, but ...". This was an Airbus A310 airliner taxiing to the stand in a commercial airport, and there are "conflicting reports"! Nuff said.
 
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you can get all that information from the Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Pittsburgh Tribune Review, Sommerset Daily American, along with AP and other national outlets which picked them up.

so who is the disinfo?

all these eyewitnesses?
all these media outlets?

Yes because if it makes it to print, then it becomes a true fact. As soon as any media prints a quote or a witness statement it becomes fact. Just like how when Bush said to the media that he didn't lie about Iraq, it then became true right? Oh wait, in that case the media IS disinfo I would bet. So basically when the media prints something you don't like, it IS disinfo, but when it prints quote that you do like, it's fact.

Is all the physical evidence disinfo? All the evidence that is far more credible than eyewitness testimony that you twist out of context?
 
Curious question...

Who here has actually ever witnessed an aircraft pass low (100ft or lower) over them at around 4-500MPH?

I have (several times), but I doubt many Conspiracy Theorists have. Those that have witnessed such a thing can offer some insight into why the eyewitness testimony could be flawed given the circumstances.
 
Curious question...

Who here has actually ever witnessed an aircraft pass low (100ft or lower) over them at around 4-500MPH?

I have (several times), but I doubt many Conspiracy Theorists have. Those that have witnessed such a thing can offer some insight into why the eyewitness testimony could be flawed given the circumstances.

I have, kinda - a Vulcan delta wing bomber (remember those beauties - Falkland Islands War?).

It's a good point gumboot. I don't recall any of the eye witnesses mentioning the need to immediately go change their underwear! I'm sure that's an aspect of the experience they wouldn't forget.
 
I have, kinda - a Vulcan delta wing bomber (remember those beauties - Falkland Islands War?).

It's a good point gumboot. I don't recall any of the eye witnesses mentioning the need to immediately go change their underwear! I'm sure that's an aspect of the experience they wouldn't forget.
I have. Numerous times in a single day while at Lockheed-Martin in Ft. Worth. F-16's practicing for a demonstration to be given the next day for the Egyptian Air Force.

They are almost silent as they approach, and when you do finally hear them, they shake you to your boots/scare the crap outta ya.
 
Curious question...

Who here has actually ever witnessed an aircraft pass low (100ft or lower) over them at around 4-500MPH?

I have (several times), but I doubt many Conspiracy Theorists have. Those that have witnessed such a thing can offer some insight into why the eyewitness testimony could be flawed given the circumstances.

The funniest time I can remember was working with some A-7 ANG folks who surprised us by coming from our back side at about 20'-50' @ ~350-400 Knots. Yes, it will literally scare the crap out of you if you're not expecting it.
 
Curious question...

Who here has actually ever witnessed an aircraft pass low (100ft or lower) over them at around 4-500MPH?

dont think anyone in the normal world has (unless its plane coming in too fast for a landing).

but as always, those planes that land at St. Maarten Island is still impressive:





I love the "Danger" sign in the last video (2nd segment of the plane taking off)
 
No dis-info (intentional) in those stories.

No dis-info (unintentional) either unless you can somehow prove that these people are lying.

Chris Smith the groundskeeper at Indian Lake.
Jim Stop fishing at Indian Lake.
Jim Brandt owner of Indian Lake marina.
Carol Delasko, John Fleegle, Tom Spinelli Indian Lake Employees.
Val McClatchey who hears the plane fly over her house which enables her to get a glance at it before it crashes.
Lee Purbaugh who insists the plane he watched crash was not flying upside down (which makes an impact from the North impossible).

8 Eyewitnesses.


If you take all the info put together instead of cherry picking certain parts. Like the account at the marina. Only your explanation of their accounts is in violation of the "official story" as displayed in this vary thread (thats what happens when you work back from a predetermined conclusion).

No cherry picking. You're cherry picking by ignoring these accounts in order to support the government story. Don't point your finger at me and accuse me of what you are guilty of.

I'm not working backwards from a predetermined conclusion, you are. That's why you flat out dismiss all these people who explain a plane coming from the Southeast towards the crash site at the exact time flight 93 is said to be approaching from the Northwest.

And you can't right this plane off as some corporate plane because from Indian Lake over McClatcheys towards the crash site makes it impossible to be the same plane that flew northeast over Susan McElwain...........

So you care to offer up any type of explanation or will you choose to just continue to attack me instead?
 
Actually Dom we read the accounts and justify them to the physical evidence. That's where you get all screwed up (unwillingness to face reality).
 
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The funniest time I can remember was working with some A-7 ANG folks who surprised us by coming from our back side at about 20'-50' @ ~350-400 Knots. Yes, it will literally scare the crap out of you if you're not expecting it.

I have. Numerous times in a single day while at Lockheed-Martin in Ft. Worth. F-16's practicing for a demonstration to be given the next day for the Egyptian Air Force.

They are almost silent as they approach, and when you do finally hear them, they shake you to your boots/scare the crap outta ya.

I have, kinda - a Vulcan delta wing bomber (remember those beauties - Falkland Islands War?).

It's a good point gumboot. I don't recall any of the eye witnesses mentioning the need to immediately go change their underwear! I'm sure that's an aspect of the experience they wouldn't forget.


Conspiracy Theorists take note...

Personally I've experienced such an event numerous times with A4Ks, once with a 727, and once with a 757. The A4 and the 727 are not quiet aircraft by any means, but I heard neither until they had already passed me. Worth noting is that in every case the aircraft seemed so low I was convinced they were mere inches from the ground. In each case I have a single image of each aircraft, suspended in the air, directly overhead. I cannot recall the aircraft approaching or moving away. I don't remember which way up the aircraft was, although common sense tells me they were the right way up.

The point, I suppose, is two fold.

1. Aircraft, particularly at low level, always look like they're far lower than they really are, particularly when moving at speed. If a layman claimed an aircraft was "several feet of the ground" I'd be willing to bet it was at least 100ft up. Obviously this has an impact on perception of scale - if you think an aircraft is at 5ft altitude, but it's really at 100ft altitude, you're going to think it's a lot smaller than it really is.

2. When an aircraft genuinely is as low as 50ft and travelling at speed - something you're only ever likely to see from military aircraft, and not at an airshow - the aircraft comes upon you suddenly, unexpectedly, and is away in the blink of an eye. You barely have time to register what is happening before it is over. The entire sequence - from silence, to the hollow hiss of the approaching craft, to the sudden roar as it appears overhead, to the shaking of buildings, to the aircraft fading, to silence again - lasts a matter of a few seconds, and trying to accurately reconstruct everything that happens in that time is impossible.

That's why people like me scoff when Conspiracy Theorists hang on every single word that an eyewitness recounts about one of the crashes on 9/11. We've experienced something familiar, so we know first hand just how inaccurate that testimony is.
 
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That's why people like me scoff when Conspiracy Theorists hang on every single word that an eyewitness recounts about one of the crashes on 9/11. We've experienced something familiar, so we know first hand just how inaccurate that testimony is.

Cut to what made me think...

OK, look, what is the connection between the fact that the Conspiracy Theorists look for conspiratorial answers, and what appears to be their more limited experience with the world? (As opposed to, for example, someone like Gumboot in this matter under discussion).

I've probably not expressed that clearly, but I hope people get the point. There is an inverse relationship between experience, and expectation of conspiracies.

Inquiring minds want to know.

ETA: What I mean is this. I don't know anything about aircraft beyond what a passenger knows. For whatever reason, a number of Jref members seem to be very experienced with aircraft in a more positive sense. Meanwhile, the Conspiracy Theorists largely seem ignorant of aircraft (except perhaps as passengers). What is the relationship between experience and expectation of conspiracies? I'm still not saying that well.
 
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Cut to what made me think...

OK, look, what is the connection between the fact that the Conspiracy Theorists look for conspiratorial answers, and what appears to be their more limited experience with the world? (As opposed to, for example, someone like Gumboot in this matter under discussion).

I've probably not expressed that clearly, but I hope people get the point. There is an inverse relationship between experience, and expectation of conspiracies.

Inquiring minds want to know.

ETA: What I mean is this. I don't know anything about aircraft beyond what a passenger knows. For whatever reason, a number of Jref members seem to be very experienced with aircraft in a more positive sense. Meanwhile, the Conspiracy Theorists largely seem ignorant of aircraft (except perhaps as passengers). What is the relationship between experience and expectation of conspiracies? I'm still not saying that well.



I know exactly what you mean, and I've thought the same thing myself many times. A lot of Conspiracy Theories seem to revolve around a lack of exposure to anything similar to what is being debated. A good example would be this notion of a vast well-oiled government organisation that is able to respond to any crisis the instant any element of the organisation becomes aware of it. Contrast that with the experience of anyone who has ever worked in government.

It seems to revolve around "My own common sense tells me that in situation A, X should have happened, but Y happened, so it's suspicious". Never mind that the person has no experience with anything remotely like A.

What I notice is that if you've had personal experience with one of these "counter-intuitive" situations, you're far less likely to fall into the faulty logic above in other situations you're not familiar with. For example I have no familiarity with building collapses or fires, but because I have familiarity with other odd things such as high-speed low-flying aircraft, I'm aware of how far off base my assumptions could be in such unfamiliar territory, so I defer to those that have such experience.

I don't think it's necessarily just a conspiracy thing either - you see it all the time in the newspaper.

For example a few days ago here in Auckland some armed men robbed a liquor store and shot one of the workers. A short time later police arrived and set up a cordon back from the location and started to seal off the area. An ambulance also arrived shortly after, and waited at the holding point. About twenty minutes later after armed police arrived (our police are not usually armed) and the area was secured they entered the store, determined it was safe, and allowed paramedics in to treat the victim. The man subsequently died of his wound in hospital.

This has created the usual flurry of police-bashing in our media, with demands to know why police took so long to get help to the victim. The perceived expectation is that unarmed police and paramedics should have just charged into an unknown situation where there could be as many as three armed men, based solely on the assurances of an unknown caller that the gunmen had gone - all to save a single person whose medical state was completely unknown.

This, of course, has all been fired up by the unqualified claim of a fellow worker that the victim would have survived if treated earlier.

This is really no different to a classic conspiracy theory claim. An expectation exists, based entirely on faulty logic and a lack of awareness of the real world. The "official" explanation is rejected out of hand as it undermines that faulty logic. The only difference is that while the New Zealand Herald and its readers stop at accusations of incompetence and heartlessness, Conspiracy Theorists carry it one further to malicious intent.

In the end it boils down to "If I was in that situation I would...".

Reminds me of laughing at knife-wielding terrorists and beating them to death with luggage... :rolleyes:
 
Can the 'truthers' find a single picture of a single piece of debris from nimrod XV257 which crashed ?

Can they find even one a picture of a piece of debris from the plane in which Lynyrd Skynyrd had their fateful crash on the 20th Oct 1977 ?

Following their logic, no pictures would mean no plane.
 
"No dis-info (unintentional) either unless you can somehow prove that these people are lying."

I have a 12 inch penis, now prove me wrong.
 
It's also worth noting that there are real eyewitness reports of unicorns. Thus proving unicorns exist unless you can prove those people who have reported seeing unicorns are wrong.
 

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