Flight 93 impact forces

[Skeptic4Sure]

Why don't you read the FDR data like everyone else has done, Mr. "elite researcher?"

What FDR data Gravy?

 

[Gravy]

What FDR data Gravy?

And there we have it, folks. Skeptic4Sure once again weighing in with opinions on a subject about which he knows nothing, and about which he isn't willing to do two minutes of research. He doesn't even know about the FDR info. Pathetic.

Proud of yourself, "researcher?"

 

[Skeptic4Sure]

Why don't you post the link for the csv. files for Flight 93 and the witnesses that correspond with it?

 

[Gravy]

Why don't you post the link for the csv. files for Flight 93 and the witnesses that correspond with it?

I'll give you ten minutes to post here at what angle flight 93 struck the ground. Shouldn't take you more than three from the time you read this.

 

[Gravy]

I gave it over 25 minutes. You're a crack researcher.

Next time, if you have a claim, state it and back it with evidence. That's what we do here. We don't think this is entertainment. Clear enough?

 

[MortFurd]

The problem is you are arguing using mathematics with TerrorCell and Killtown.

Terrorcell will literally ignore math. It's like kryptonite.

Killtown has never met a planecrash that has actually happened. All 4 flights on sep11, the Sandia F4 test, and Corey Lidle's crash, in his opinion, are all faked. You should read his Lidle-crash analysis and realize how his fallacious approach can litterally be used anywhere and at any time to disprove anything.

Don't bother talking math with Killtown.
He's the fellow who added 580mph to 125 feet to get a diameter of 705 feet.

Math just isn't a CT strong point.

 

[njslim]

USAIR 427 was a 737 which crashed in a heavily wooded area - as far as I
can tell from the photos. UAL93 hit a open patch of ground in a reclaimed
strip mine. The fact that USAIR427 probably ploughed through a cluster
of trees before hitting the ground should be considered - impact with the
tree absorbed a lot of the energy. Also impacting the trees first would
cause the AC to break up before ground impact - large pieces of the plane
probably hurled far distances. Add to that difference in speed - UAL93 going
twice the speed (equals 4 x energy) accounts for differences in impact
scenes. Have witnessed aftermath of high speed impact (Lear35) with
ground - plane in my case hit rocky ground at ~350 kts nose down. Ac
totally disintergrated only recognizable piece was landing gear light and
piece of tail abount 2 x3 ft.

 

[Anti-sophist]

Behold the power of "images + common sense" to counter mathematics and physics.

 

[apathoid]

What FDR data Gravy?

Maybe this FDR data?
Lemme guess. It was faked, right?

 

[FramerDave]

Sorry if this has already been addressed...

The CT jobs think that the hardness/softness of the ground is a factor? At the speeds and energies we're talking about, wouldn't hitting any soil at all be pretty much like hitting solid concrete?

From what I've read someone jumping from the Golden Gate bridge into the water below may as well be falling onto concrete, so why wouldn't an airliner at 500+ mph experience the same thing?

 

[Gravy]

FramerDave, you have much to learn about the New Physucks^tm

 

[Anti-sophist]

sigh wrong thread. What is wrong with me.

I mean...

bump..?

 

[Bell]

Completely OT, but Gravy, what's up with your new avatar? The lines remind me of the WTC, but I guess it's a pedestrian crossing of sorts?

[/OT]

 

[uk_dave]

Completely OT, but Gravy, what's up with your new avatar? The lines remind me of the WTC, but I guess it's a pedestrian crossing of sorts?

[/OT]

My take on gravy's (blessings be upon him) avatar is that both dots are moving at the same speed rather like the onward march of time.

But the blue dot represents the woowoos and the yellow dot represents critical thinking, and for some reason, despite the fact that we all share the same progression of time, the woowoos always appear to be lagging behind.

 

[beachnut]

US Air 427...

So you come to a math fight with photos instead of numbers; good job.

Looks like the impact here, on the photo you presented was equal to 544 pounds of TNT damage!

If you look at flight 93, you will see the impact energy of 1484 pounds of TNT.

Not sure but if you find some Air Force accident guys they will tell you a lot of accidents have buried the plane and pilot below the ground with little or no debris around. Questions?

Funny, you came with no numbers just photos, and false analogies to make your false point. Is this your standard procedure or do you always come to events with the wrong data?

 

[jaydeehess]

In normalizing to mass I use a form that most people can relate to, that is the force exerted by gravity.

Normal gravity on a plane on the tarmac has all the force resisted by the landing gear. the forces on the aircraft in question were 1000 and 500 times the force of gravity AND instead of having those forces transmitted to the landing gear they were exerted upon the nose and leading edge of the aircraft.

So m figures above would best be decribed as comparing the two as if they were both placed on their nose in gravity feilds of 1000g and 500g respectively.

To compare this to flight 427 one could idealise its situation and assume that all other conditions were the same, ground absorption of energies for eg. and even consider the two aircraft to be equal in mass, BUT they were not equal in velocity. The FDR data has 93 doing approx twice the velocity of 427.

There is NO OTHER DATA AVAILABLE FROM ANYONE to suggest that it (93) was slower!!!!!!!!!!

Thus the energy available was 4 times as much and if it dug a trench twice as deep as that of 427 then the forces would be equal.


So , yes one could then expect the damage to be exact. However one thing that does characterize the differences is the details, the non-ideal situations. 427 crashed into trees while 93 into a feild, thus the distance through which the impact forces were being dissapated was much longer for flight 427 though the dissaptaion per unit distance was less during the first 40 feet or so(height of the trees),. Flight 93 also hit reclaimed mineing land and again I say that this means it hit a pile of very hard rocks whereas flight 427 hit loamy ground interspersed with tree roots. It would also be quite unusual if they both hit at the same angle to the ground in both lateral and vertical alignments.

 

[Hellbound]

jaydeehess:

To put it in better terms:

The impact speed was over 500 mph. That's about 735 feet per second.

For comparison, a .45 caliber pistol using standard, military-grade ball ammunition has a muzzle velocity of about 800 to 900 feet per second.

So you have a 747 that impacted the ground almost as fast as a bullet fired from a .45 pistol. Such an impact into soft earth will twist and deform a solid lead .45 round. Now imagine that .45 round is actually a light frame covered with a thin aluminum skin...

 

[beachnut]

So you come to a math fight with photos instead of numbers; good job.

Looks like the impact here, on the photo you presented was equal to 544 pounds of TNT damage!

If you look at flight 93, you will see the impact energy of 1484 pounds of TNT.

Not sure but if you find some Air Force accident guys they will tell you a lot of accidents have buried the plane and pilot below the ground with little or no debris around. Questions?

Funny, you came with no numbers just photos, and false analogies to make your false point. Is this your standard procedure or do you always come to events with the wrong data?

Made a mistake, flight 427 only weighed 126,400 pounds, so at impact the KE was equal to 241.56 pounds of TNT.

Flight 93 had the KE of 1484 pounds of TNT (estimate).

These estimates of energy can be used to help understand why there is such a difference in the scene.

Remember speed kills. And with around 5 or 6 times the KE, flight 93 dug a hole and was smashed compared to flight 427.

 

[FramerDave]

Remember speed kills.

If that were true then every pilot, passenger and astronaut would be dead.

Sudden acceleration kills.

 

[Gravy]

Completely OT, but Gravy, what's up with your new avatar? The lines remind me of the WTC, but I guess it's a pedestrian crossing of sorts?

My take on gravy's (blessings be upon him) avatar is that both dots are moving at the same speed rather like the onward march of time.

But the blue dot represents the woowoos and the yellow dot represents critical thinking, and for some reason, despite the fact that we all share the same progression of time, the woowoos always appear to be lagging behind.

I like it.

jaydeehess:

To put it in better terms:

The impact speed was over 500 mph. That's about 735 feet per second.

For comparison, a .45 caliber pistol using standard, military-grade ball ammunition has a muzzle velocity of about 800 to 900 feet per second.

So you have a 747 that impacted the ground almost as fast as a bullet fired from a .45 pistol. Such an impact into soft earth will twist and deform a solid lead .45 round. Now imagine that .45 round is actually a light frame covered with a thin aluminum skin...

A few corrections: it was a 757 impacting at 580 mph (504 kts), or 850 feet per second, every bit as fast as a .45 round. Huntsman had previously posted this info, so I think he's just testing to see if we're paying attention.