Flight 77 flight path

tj15 · Nov 8, 2009

Have officer LaGasse and others been debunked in their recollection of the flight path of flight 77? He was at the Citco gas station and said the airplane was north of the station.

Sorry if this has been discussed already.

R.Mackey · Nov 8, 2009

It's been discussed over literally a thousand pages of the Forum.

Yes, he has been debunked. This tiny part of his recollection conflicts with the RADAR records of the flight, the FDR records, the damage path, and a majority of eyewitnesses -- including Mr. Lagasse himself, who saw the impact. The fine details are also inconsistent in several other respects (as pointed out even by other truthers). Furthermore, he does not support the conspiracy theories himself.

Bottom line, he is mistaken about the aircraft's precise location prior to impact. It happens. This is only interesting if you're desperate for an "anomaly" to bolster a preconceived opinion.

tj15 · Nov 8, 2009

R.Mackey said:
It's been discussed over literally a thousand pages of the Forum.

Yes, he has been debunked. This tiny part of his recollection conflicts with the RADAR records of the flight, the FDR records, the damage path, and a majority of eyewitnesses -- including Mr. Lagasse himself, who saw the impact. The fine details are also inconsistent in several other respects (as pointed out even by other truthers). Furthermore, he does not support the conspiracy theories himself.

Bottom line, he is mistaken about the aircraft's precise location prior to impact. It happens. This is only interesting if you're desperate for an "anomaly" to bolster a preconceived opinion.

LaGasse Sounds pretty confident in this interview...

http://www.video4viet.com/watchvide...tional+Security+Alert+-+Sensitive+Information

tj15 · Nov 8, 2009

There are about 8 people in that video that think the plane was north of citco. How are they all mistaken?

This is actually the first time I have looked into this flight path stuff, so my questions may be stupid.

Brattus · Nov 8, 2009

Not only that! But I think you'll find with a little research that all 8 of those people have died strange and mysterious deaths.
As soon as they started talking about the grassy knoll and seeing Oswald helping elderly people cross the street instead of being inside the book depository they just didn't stand a chance!

beachnut · Nov 8, 2009

tj15 said:
There are about 8 people in that video that think the plane was north of citco. How are they all mistaken?

This is actually the first time I have looked into this flight path stuff, so my questions may be stupid.

He agrees Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon.

The real interviews are right after 911, not years later.

http://memory.loc.gov/learn/collecti...1/history.html

CIT witnesses contradicting every thing they imply.

American Airlines Flight 77 from Washington-Dulles International Airport crashed into the Pentagon at 9:37 a.m. William Lagasse, Chadwick Brooks, and Donald Brennan were Pentagon police officers on duty at the time of the attack. Lagasse was in the process of refueling his police car when the American Airliner flew past him so low that its wind blast knocked him into his vehicle. In an interview conducted in December 2001 , Lagasse described the secondary explosions and the search and recovery of injured Pentagon personnel. Brooks saw the hijacked plane clip lampposts and nosedive into the Pentagon and described the ensuing scenes of chaos in his interview, taped November 25, 2001.

Mr.Herbert · Nov 8, 2009

tj15 said:
There are about 8 people in that video that think the plane was north of citco. How are they all mistaken?

This is actually the first time I have looked into this flight path stuff, so my questions may be stupid.

Myriad · Nov 8, 2009

tj15 said:
There are about 8 people in that video that think the plane was north of citco. How are they all mistaken?

Because people are not very good at judging distances.

Have you ever watched a football game, either live or on TV, and been mistaken about whether a field goal kick was good -- that is, whether the ball went "north" or "south" of one of the goal post uprights?

If you're looking at the goal post from the side (a seat in line with the back of the end zone), you can tell exactly when the ball crosses the plane of the goal post, but it's hard to tell whether it's inside or outside the uprights, especially if it's above the top of the uprights at the time. Because that requires judging the exact distance of the ball compared with the distances of the two uprights. That's difficult.

If you're looking at the goal posts from end on (a seat in line with the length of the field), you can easily tell whether the ball is between the uprights at any given moment, but it's hard to tell when it crosses the plane of the goal post. Because again, that requires judging its exact distance from you. So if the ball is moving left to right or right to left, you might not be able to tell whether it was between the uprights at the critical moment when it crossed the plane of the goal post, because it's hard to tell when that moment occurs.

If you're looking from some other angle, then you have a combination of both problems.

The only angle from which you can be sure to be able to tell is standing under the uprights looking directly upward, as the referees do. (Being directly above the uprights looking downward would also work.)

For the case of flight 77, the same problem applies. Nearly every witness was in a position that requires the witness to judge the distance of the plane in order to tell if it passed north or south of the Citgo. The only exceptions are the people who were actually at the Citgo, and who therefore could easily perceive both when it passed, and on what side it passed on, without having to judge its exact distance to do so. (They're like the referees standing right under the uprights.) That would include Lagasse, but unfortunately his recall of the event including his own position at the time has been shown to be imperfect.

Respectfully,
Myriad

R.Mackey · Nov 8, 2009

tj15 said:
There are about 8 people in that video that think the plane was north of citco. How are they all mistaken?

This is actually the first time I have looked into this flight path stuff, so my questions may be stupid.

Lagasse also believes the light poles were "North of the CITGO." Read his interview.

How are eight people out of thousands mistaken, when interviewed years after the fact by biased individuals? Happens ALL THE TIME.

There have been various ideas put forth as to why. One is that the shadow of the aircraft would have been considerably west of the plane, as the crash happened in the morning. Frankly given that the plane would have been in view for only seconds, and struck without warning, I'm surprised anyone got it right -- but many did, identifying the correct flight path and even correct aircraft.

Another, I've always wondered why the CITheads refer to these alternate paths as "North" and "South" relative to the gas station, rather than "East" and "West." Try asking random people where True North is, and see how close they are. Ten degrees? Twenty? Some folks have no clue at all.

And, finally, it wouldn't matter if a million people claimed to have seen this. The physical evidence is conclusive. That's all there is to it.

This may be the single most discussed, and stupidest, topic tackled in the history of the 9/11 Conspiracy Theories subforum. Not because they are popular, mind you, merely because of the sheer virulence of the few proponents. To describe them as evangelical in their beliefs is a gross understatement.

Don't be an enabler. Reject false hypotheses and move on. There's nothing to see here.

beachnut · Nov 9, 2009

tj15 said:
There are about 8 people in that video that think the plane was north of citco. How are they all mistaken?

This is actually the first time I have looked into this flight path stuff, so my questions may be stupid.

All the witnesses point to the south flight path. CIT is the personification of dirt dumb.

Interview with William Lagasse, Fredericksburg, Virginia, December 4, 2001

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/afc911bib:@field(DOCID+@lit(afc911000152))

Interview with Chadwick B. Brooks, Stephens City, Virginia, November 25, 2001

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/afc911bib:@field(DOCID+@lit(afc911000150))

tj15 · Nov 9, 2009

Myriad said:
Because people are not very good at judging distances.

Have you ever watched a football game, either live or on TV, and been mistaken about whether a field goal kick was good -- that is, whether the ball went "north" or "south" of one of the goal post uprights?

If you're looking at the goal post from the side (a seat in line with the back of the end zone), you can tell exactly when the ball crosses the plane of the goal post, but it's hard to tell whether it's inside or outside the uprights, especially if it's above the top of the uprights at the time. Because that requires judging the exact distance of the ball compared with the distances of the two uprights. That's difficult.

If you're looking at the goal posts from end on (a seat in line with the length of the field), you can easily tell whether the ball is between the uprights at any given moment, but it's hard to tell when it crosses the plane of the goal post. Because again, that requires judging its exact distance from you. So if the ball is moving left to right or right to left, you might not be able to tell whether it was between the uprights at the critical moment when it crossed the plane of the goal post, because it's hard to tell when that moment occurs.

If you're looking from some other angle, then you have a combination of both problems.

The only angle from which you can be sure to be able to tell is standing under the uprights looking directly upward, as the referees do. (Being directly above the uprights looking downward would also work.)

For the case of flight 77, the same problem applies. Nearly every witness was in a position that requires the witness to judge the distance of the plane in order to tell if it passed north or south of the Citgo. The only exceptions are the people who were actually at the Citgo, and who therefore could easily perceive both when it passed, and on what side it passed on, without having to judge its exact distance to do so. (They're like the referees standing right under the uprights.) That would include Lagasse, but unfortunately his recall of the event including his own position at the time has been shown to be imperfect.

Respectfully,
Myriad

LaGasse claims he was at the citgo gas station, correct?

He said he was looking "north" (the opposite side of the gas station that the official story puts the flight path). He would have had to have been mistaken in which direction he was looking, wouldn't he? According to the official story and according to the direction LaGasse was looking, LaGasse should not have seen the airplane at all... Meaning he would have to have eyes in the back of his head to see the plane.

Note: I don't agree that this proves anything... I'm just trying to see it what accounts for this apparent discrepancy...

tj15 · Nov 9, 2009

Does anyone have a list of eyewitnesses that support the official flight path of flight 77? Did any of the witnesses see the light poles knocked down?

TruthersLie · Nov 9, 2009

tj15 said:
LaGasse claims he was at the citgo gas station, correct?

He said he was looking "north" (the opposite side of the gas station that the official story puts the flight path). He would have had to have been mistaken in which direction he was looking, wouldn't he? According to the official story and according to the direction LaGasse was looking, LaGasse should not have seen the airplane at all... Meaning he would have to have eyes in the back of his head to see the plane.

Note: I don't agree that this proves anything... I'm just trying to see it what accounts for this apparent discrepancy...

You see, you have outted yourself in this post.
what official story? There is NO "official" story. That is a phrase of a twoof.

This has been discussed to death... what is highly amusing is that the CIT folks go back to witnesses YEARS after the event and ask them to tell them the details. I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch last week... but you want me to remember exactly where I was standing, where I was looking and specifically waht I saw YEARS ago? forget about it.

BigAl · Nov 9, 2009

tj15 said:
Does anyone have a list of eyewitnesses that support the official flight path of flight 77? Did any of the witnesses see the light poles knocked down?

Put any claim made by anyone in the context of all the evidence we have; the entire aircraft and all the bodies found inside the Pentagon, plus radar data, black boxes, and much more.

Read Firefight: Inside the Battle to Save the Pentagon on 9/11
150 interviews with participants and eye-witnesses

105 eyewitnesses
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/PentWitnesses.xls

Statements from 100 (est) eye witnesses, all cited to full text
sources
http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html

tj15 · Nov 9, 2009

TruthersLie said:
You see, you have outted yourself in this post.
what official story? There is NO "official" story. That is a phrase of a twoof.

This has been discussed to death... what is highly amusing is that the CIT folks go back to witnesses YEARS after the event and ask them to tell them the details. I have difficulty remembering what I had for lunch last week... but you want me to remember exactly where I was standing, where I was looking and specifically waht I saw YEARS ago? forget about it.

Call me a truther all you want. I'm not.

tj15 · Nov 9, 2009

BigAl said:
Put any claim made by anyone in the context of all the evidence we have; the entire aircraft and all the bodies found inside the Pentagon, plus radar data, black boxes, and much more.

Read Firefight: Inside the Battle to Save the Pentagon on 9/11
150 interviews with participants and eye-witnesses

105 eyewitnesses
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/PentWitnesses.xls

Statements from 100 (est) eye witnesses, all cited to full text
sources
http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html

I can't view the links for some reason... Did any witnesses see the light poles get hit?

A W Smith · Nov 9, 2009

tj15 said:
LaGasse claims he was at the citgo gas station, correct?

He said he was looking "north" (the opposite side of the gas station that the official story puts the flight path). He would have had to have been mistaken in which direction he was looking, wouldn't he? According to the official story and according to the direction LaGasse was looking, LaGasse should not have seen the airplane at all... Meaning he would have to have eyes in the back of his head to see the plane.

Note: I don't agree that this proves anything... I'm just trying to see it what accounts for this apparent discrepancy...

when interviewed and filmed by ranke years later doing a re-enactment. Lagasse was at the wrong gas pump. Ranke had to correct him. Because the citgo security cam video shows him at another pump. Ranke would have taken his testimony at face value had he been unaware of the citgo security cam video which shows him fueling his patrol car. And he wasnt "blown" back into his patrol car. He ducked into his patrol car in fear.

witnesses
http://web.archive.org/web/20070923181310/http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html

light pole witnesses
http://web.archive.org/web/20070701221037/eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/lpa1.html

tj15 · Nov 9, 2009

A W Smith said:
when interviewed and filmed by ranke years later doing a re-enactment. Lagasse was at the wrong gas pump. Ranke had to correct him. Because the citgo security cam video shows him at another pump. Ranke would have taken his testimony at face value had he been unaware of the citgo security cam video which shows him fueling his patrol car. And he wasnt "blown" back into his patrol car. He ducked into his patrol car in fear.

witnesses
http://web.archive.org/web/20070923181310/http://eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/witness.html

light pole witnesses
http://web.archive.org/web/20070701221037/eric.bart.free.fr/iwpb/lpa1.html

Thanks for the link about the light pole witnesses.

TruthersLie · Nov 9, 2009

tj15 said:
Call me a truther all you want. I'm not.

You sure are JAQing off like a twoof. You sure are failing to use the search function like a twoof.

If you aren't, then stop JAQing off like one.

You ignore the search function, and are given answers and links to the answers for your questions and then just try to spin them...

walks like a twoof, sounds like a twoof, acts like a twoof... it probably is a twoof.

TruthersLie · Nov 9, 2009

tj15 said:
I can't view the links for some reason... Did any witnesses see the light poles get hit?

Why don't you look it up yourself?

The search function, and GOOGLE are your friend.

Here let me google that for you
http://tinyurl.com/yhnxxoj

take a look at the top 3... 9/11 debunker has your quotes

Flight 77 flight path

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