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Flat earthers

Urgh, flat earthers - had my fair share of run-ins with them.

The one guy I was "engaging" with seems to want to be convinced the earth is flat so that he can then justify his distrust in governments, or any other social authority. Admittedly, he has a history of alternative beliefs.

It's like arguing with a cross between a religious zealot and a 9/11 truther - facts don't feature.

I gave up after trying to debunk one of their popular assertions that the "horizon always rises to eye level", which supposedly proves a flat earth. Their method of measurement involves a spirit level and a cardboard tube. Considering that the angles we are talking about here are very small, this is not exactly the proper way of doing things.

So, I set out with a theodolite, calibrated, took measurements at sea level, and then hiked up a mountain carrying the damn thing, and again calibrated and took measurements. The horizon drop from horizontal is plain to see.

It took me ages to capture all my workings, with video references, calculations of what to expect and verification of same, etc. etc.

When I presented the results, I was asked one question: does the theodolite have a lens? Yes, I replied. Well, there's your problem, lenses distort the horizon, your results are invalid. WTF? Even after I had carefully explained how calibration negates any lens effects.

Ah well, at least I had fun :)

My take on flat earth theory? See my sig line.
 
There must be an amazing number of people involved in selling the round-earth lie. Otherwise, I don't see how it could possibly be maintained.

Do the flat-earthers acknowledge this? Does it bother them that so many of their fellows are foisting a falsehood on the rest of us?

At first it sounds like a really stressful, tough way to live. But then I remember I don't believe in God and I manage.
 
Theres been heaps on the various conspiracy sites, funny thing was that even the 9/1 hoaxers and Sandy Hookers think the flat earthers are nuts- They often comment that the flat earthers are `ebil gobernment psykops' that post the `silly flat earth' stuff to make the other conspiracy nutters look like- well- nutters

(what amuses me is one nutter, calling another nutter nuts and vise versa- when they are both actually correct in thinking the other one is nuts but they dont think they themselves as nuts....)

And if you can follow that bit of convoluted thinking.....

you probably arent nuts LOL
 
Lurch said:
If the Sun's light is supposed to be 'focused' in the manner of a flashlight, then why is it always the case that wherever and whenever on Earth we always see the Sun shining fully (when not attenuated by clouds, fog, volcanic ash, etc.) anytime it is above the horizon?
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I think this gets into crowd management territory where you have a superficial answer for one problem, but have to evade the three other problems that crop up from your first bad answer. If you let people do follow-up questions and start drawing conclusions then you lose control.

The one's I've seen just have a script memorized and are over their heads quickly on technical points. So they urge people to let them get through the presentation and show intellectual prowess by holding onto a premise they disagree with in order to hear it out.


Delvo said:
The point of view is from across part of the Lake in Indiana or even Michigan. They do have the right curvature & distance numbers, which can be obtained fairly easily from non-flat-Earth sources so they wouldn't need to do the math themselves. They just don't include the possibility of having the resulting range extended occasionally by a mirage-like effect set up by a certain kind of thermal layering over the Lake which, under the right conditions, bends the light path down.
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Thanks for that.

It was suspicious that there are a tiny number of examples with special circumstances as "proof". If they are using the right formulas and their theory is correct, then it will be true in general. No reason it has to be the Chicago skyline from the water at certain times. Or a canal from 1853.

I've listened to them say things about what pilots see, and what pilots are allowed to do and it is incredible. There are public flights to the South Pole regularly, like this outfit for example:


http://www.polarcruises.com/antarctica/ships/specialty-adventure/south-pole-and-emperor-penguins/south-pole-flights

It's quite modest at $25K to $73K per person for these week-long adventures with planes, camps, penguins, and guides with tracked vehicles. Jesus, there better be good whiskey.

How can you not know this when posing yourself as an expert on what you can do at the South Pole? You can talk to pilots who circumnavigate and don't fall off the edge of the earth.
 
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Our local national airline (Qantas) also has joyflights over the south pole fairly regularly during the summer months, and another firm has flights booked on hired Qantas 747's as their entire business!
http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/

One thing that gets me is that most flat earthers subscribe to the `U.N.' model of the map ie centralised north pole, the south pole being a circle around the outside edge
eg can be seen at https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/f6/98/b0/f698b0fccc82509594507192058ba8cb.jpg
the problem is that either you guys in the states are wrong or people driving across oz are wrong, its about the same distance on a globe earth, but look at the difference across Oz its nearly3 times the distance on the flat earth model...

This causes obvious problems when you have people moving from one place on the earth to another, a kilometer (or mile depending on your country) has to be different lengths at different parts of the earth.... things like car speedos would have to be calibrated depending on your distance from the north pole- a car calibrated in Canadian miles (or km, not sure what they use there) when exported to Oz, would have to have a recalibration done, or its milometer would be undereading by a factor of about 3! - certainly very noticable....
planes and ships are worse, they would have to recalibrate while in the air/ocean- flying east to west would be 1 mile per mile, while flying north to south would result in 1 mile being from 0 to about 3 miles depending on distance from the north pole!

uggh
 
EvilBiker said:
Urgh, flat earthers - had my fair share of run-ins with them.

The one guy I was "engaging" with seems to want to be convinced the earth is flat so that he can then justify his distrust in governments, or any other social authority. Admittedly, he has a history of alternative beliefs.

It's like arguing with a cross between a religious zealot and a 9/11 truther - facts don't feature.

I gave up after trying to debunk one of their popular assertions that the "horizon always rises to eye level", which supposedly proves a flat earth. Their method of measurement involves a spirit level and a cardboard tube. Considering that the angles we are talking about here are very small, this is not exactly the proper way of doing things.

So, I set out with a theodolite, calibrated, took measurements at sea level, and then hiked up a mountain carrying the damn thing, and again calibrated and took measurements. The horizon drop from horizontal is plain to see.

It took me ages to capture all my workings, with video references, calculations of what to expect and verification of same, etc. etc.

When I presented the results, I was asked one question: does the theodolite have a lens? Yes, I replied. Well, there's your problem, lenses distort the horizon, your results are invalid. WTF? Even after I had carefully explained how calibration negates any lens effects.

Ah well, at least I had fun :)

My take on flat earth theory? See my sig line.
Click to expand...

The next step might be a discussion of how lenses work and how distortions can be calculated, along side the character of your theodolite lens.
 
Dabop said:
Our local national airline (Qantas) also has joyflights over the south pole fairly regularly during the summer months, and another firm has flights booked on hired Qantas 747's as their entire business!
http://www.antarcticaflights.com.au/
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. It shows how little effort is involved in debunking the lynchpin of the whole conspiracy theory. There is no flotilla of ships poised to shoot down planes flying past the ice wall. Instead, you can lay down cash and fly over the pole yourself if you have any doubts.

We're supposed to dismiss all of NASA's work because we weren't on space ships ourselves but on the other hand we're supposed to believe they are shooting down planes defying the ban on polar flights.

It's why I am leaning towards Alternate Reality Gaming as an explanation for Flat Earthers.
 
Flat earth believers (or trolls--they're pretty difficult to tell apart) are good at coming up with individual explanations for individual cases, but these explanations don't stand up when looking at the broader picture.

For example, the "spotlight" sun idea works for explaining why we need time zones, but does it explain why the North Pole is in darkness 6 months of the year while the South Pole is in sunlight, and vice-versa for the other six months? (Same is true to a lesser extent of any other city north or south of 40 degrees latitude.) Does it explain why Canada and Australia have their summer and winter six months out of phase with each other? Does it explain hurricanes and eclipse paths? Does it explain why we see two transits of Mercury within a few years of each other, but these pairs are separated by over a hundred years? Does it explain the retrograde motion of Mars? Does it explain gravity boosts when getting an interplanetary probe to Saturn?

A globe shaped Earth in a heliocentric orbit very nicely explains all the above. Occam's razor and all that. Genuine flat earthers have to throw out all of the last 300 or so years of astronomy, counting from the publication of Galileo's Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems.
 
Dabop said:
Sandy Hookers
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I didn't know there was such a thing. What theory makes them what they are? That there was no Sandy Hook shooting? That it was done by government agents? That it was done by Monsanto agents? And what makes that shooting different from other shootings to them in this regard?

* * *

Do Australian flat-Earthers think the South Pole is in the middle and the North Pole is the rim around the outside?
 
AlaskaBushPilot said:
Thanks for that. It shows how little effort is involved in debunking the lynchpin of the whole conspiracy theory. There is no flotilla of ships poised to shoot down planes flying past the ice wall. Instead, you can lay down cash and fly over the pole yourself if you have any doubts.

We're supposed to dismiss all of NASA's work because we weren't on space ships ourselves but on the other hand we're supposed to believe they are shooting down planes defying the ban on polar flights.
Click to expand...

See my post 15. There's a link which I feel is a best example that answers your "why" folks not only believe the Earth is flat, but why they choose to reject reality and replace it with their own in other areas we critigue here.
 
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Steve001 said:
See my post 15. There's a link which I feel is a best example that answers your "why" folks not only believe the Earth is flat, but why they choose to reject reality and replace it with their own in other areas we critigue here.
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Jesus H. Christ on a stick, that guy was both stupid and rude. Thank you for the video, it's the best I've seen of the limited exposure I have because it had extensive questions by the other two dudes and you could really read the body language of el stupido.

He's being an actor. Toying with the other two, who are really working hard to be polite. The money quote:

"What's the big deal? It's entertaining to me..."

Well the big deal is all of your antisocial conduct, being an unreasonable ass while smirking about it. Doesn't he look like a spoiled child?

They have no compunction about calling us fools. Ridicule, shame, and lying too. You are lying that you really believe - that's where it all starts.

Thanks. I'm convinced now.
 
I've never understood the motivation of these flat-earth brain-damage patients simpletons who portray themselves as refusing to accept overwhelming obviousness. That the earth and other celestial bodies are spherical is so obvious that it just can't be true? But since they can't go into space personally and really check it all out first hand - and because they can't trust anything they see (except what they'd have seen had they been able to go to space, I think) - they'll rely on the recitation of a bunch of simple minded rebuttals to "prove" their case instead, including questioning the reality of photography itself? Really? As a round Baller™ earther I'm the brain-washed one?! :eye-poppi
 
Blue Mountain said:
Flat earth believers (or trolls--they're pretty difficult to tell apart) are good at coming up with individual explanations for individual cases, but these explanations don't stand up when looking at the broader picture.

For example, the "spotlight" sun idea works for explaining why we need time zones, but does it explain why the North Pole is in darkness 6 months of the year while the South Pole is in sunlight, and vice-versa for the other six months? (Same is true to a lesser extent of any other city north or south of 40 degrees latitude.) Does it explain why Canada and Australia have their summer and winter six months out of phase with each other? Does it explain hurricanes and eclipse paths? Does it explain why we see two transits of Mercury within a few years of each other, but these pairs are separated by over a hundred years? Does it explain the retrograde motion of Mars? Does it explain gravity boosts when getting an interplanetary probe to Saturn?

A globe shaped Earth in a heliocentric orbit very nicely explains all the above. Occam's razor and all that. Genuine flat earthers have to throw out all of the last 300 or so years of astronomy, counting from the publication of Galileo's Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems.
Click to expand...
It occurs to me that some of the flat earth mythology might have come from someone trying to answer these questions as a purely intellectual exercise without actually believing it, and then other people taking the intellectual exercise seriously as a matter of doctrine.

After all, reading this thread I find myself trying to come up with plausible answers to these questions. If I wrote down in a blog my attempts to answer them, then some random person on the internet came across it, I can believe that they might believe my intellectual ramblings as something deep and meaningful.
 
Delvo said:
I didn't know there was such a thing. What theory makes them what they are? That there was no Sandy Hook shooting? That it was done by government agents? That it was done by Monsanto agents? And what makes that shooting different from other shootings to them in this regard?
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Practically everything is a false flag according to someone or other
Sandy hookers are well represented at the various conspiracy sites, London one slightly less so, Boston marathon never happened- literally EVERYTHING is a false flag with one group or another

Sandy Hook false flag

(just google Event here false flag and see the results)
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Delvo said:
Do Australian flat-Earthers think the South Pole is in the middle and the North Pole is the rim around the outside?
Click to expand...

Well we don't fall off, so that means we are actually at the top, so you so called `northers' don't really exist or you would fall off the `bottom' of the world, which is actually upside down from everything we have ever been taught at school

 
HarryHenderson said:
I've never understood the motivation of these flat-earth brain-damage patients simpletons who portray themselves as refusing to accept overwhelming obviousness. That the earth and other celestial bodies are spherical is so obvious that it just can't be true? But since they can't go into space personally and really check it all out first hand - and because they can't trust anything they see (except what they'd have seen had they been able to go to space, I think) - they'll rely on the recitation of a bunch of simple minded rebuttals to "prove" their case instead, including questioning the reality of photography itself? Really? As a round Baller™ earther I'm the brain-washed one?! :eye-poppi
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Audacity, yeah. No shame. An attempt at gaslighting or crazy-making, as some call it, I guess.

And insulting you relentlessly. The natural response to abuse, to being called "brainwashed" and stupid is anger.

"Ball Earth Theory" is a condescending label. In elementary school we called it a sphere or globe. Aristotle did not call it a ball. So they've made up their own derisive term about all of us.

Not an argument. That seems to be my general response to most of what they push.
 
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