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Fire Rumsfeld!!!!!!!

jj said:


Well, he's one of the places that the buck stops.
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Yes, when a marine commites a crime, we should always fire the Sec. of Defense. Right now there over 3000 court martials in some form.

I'm still waiting for the people clamoring for Rummy's firing to ask for Janet Reno to be retroactively fired to be consistent.

For that matter, Warren Christopher should have been fired for the rape case in japan.
 
corplinx said:


Yes, when a marine commites a crime, we should always fire the Sec. of Defense. Right now there over 3000 court martials in some form.

I'm still waiting for the people clamoring for Rummy's firing to act ofr Janet Reno to be retroactively fired to be consistent.

For that matter, Warren Christopher should have been fired for the rape case in japan.
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So, Corpse, why did you stop after half of what I said. You're complaining about me, sure, but for the wrong reason.

Did you miss the part about where I said I'd fire him for apparently hiding it, and for trying to bury it, instead of stomping on it like Godzilla.
 
jj said:

Did you miss the part about where I said I'd fire him for apparently hiding it, and for trying to bury it, instead of stomping on it like Godzilla.
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There is no evidence of this. Provide it.
 
jj said:


Well, he's one of the places that the buck stops.

I am leaning toward the idea that he should be fired, cold-turkey, but the fact he appears to have withheld stuff from 'W' and so on is part of that.

A great big THUD of an investigation, soldiers in jail, and I might have felt otherwise.

None of this 'hide it until you can't any more'.
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Fair enough. I thought Janet Reno should have been fired. She said that she accepted responsibility for Waco but stated that it wasn't her fault so I understand how you feel.

And no, I'm not trying to justify what Rumsfeld did via Reno. If what he did was wrong then it is wrong. I'm just saying I know how you feel.

RandFan
 
RandFan said:
Fair enough. I thought Janet Reno should have been fired. She said that she accepted responsibility for Waco but stated that it wasn't her fault so I understand how you feel.

And no, I'm not trying to justify what Rumsfeld did via Reno. If what he did was wrong then it is wrong. I'm just saying I know how you feel.

RandFan
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Well, when things DO get out of hand, I don't appreciate people who basically stand back and gape in horror, at least not for very long (we're all human). I would prefer more of the "first get a basic cut of the facts, and then come down like a rockslide".

That goes for Reno, too. She's not one of my top 10 either.

Corpse doesn't think there's any evidence that Rummy held out, we'll see if the media made it all up or not, then. (Note, I trust Rummy as far as I trust the media. That's not so great for a leader.)
 
So assuming that Rumsfeld goes, who is there that commands enough respect both domestically and internationally to begin to restore people's faith in the US military?
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How about Mr. Colin Powell?

in your meaningless, moping, whining, finger-pointing, complaining, pathetic, lazy-ass liberal opinion.
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What's up, American? Did I accidentally rip off REO Speedwagon?

Yes, when a marine commites a crime, we should always fire the Sec. of Defense. Right now there over 3000 court martials in some form.
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Umm, Rummy didn't tell his president about this stuff, which is his job. He failed at his job, which he admitted at the beginning of his shpiel. When you fail at your job, what do you think you get - a friggin promotion?

Nice dredging up the Clinton administration. Yet another 'not as bad as......'?
Bring up Reno, who was not Secretary of Defense, by the way, and you're subjectively comparing Rumsfeld to her, when everyone's behavior should be compared to a single objective standard. For greater understanding of what I mean, how's this grab you: "Yeah, well at least Reno never shook Saddam Hussein's hand."
 
Dorian Gray said:
Nice dredging up the Clinton administration. Yet another 'not as bad as......'?

Bring up Reno, who was not Secretary of Defense, by the way, and you're subjectively comparing Rumsfeld to her, when everyone's behavior should be compared to a single objective standard. For greater understanding of what I mean, how's this grab you: "Yeah, well at least Reno never shook Saddam Hussein's hand."
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Hey Dorian,

I honestly wasn't trying to use Reno to justify or minimize anything. If you read my post I said I was only trying to express my feelings when Reno refused to accept real responsibility. I did not say "not as bad as...".

I have kept my tone neutral and have avoided rhetoric.

I was really not trying to compare. I wasn't debating jj and I said "fair enough to jj's comments". While I don't see this quite the same way that you do, I'm not arguing either and I do understand how you feel. I just wanted some clarification and hopefully know that you understood the subject, at least in part, the way I do.

RandFan
 
Dorian Gray said:
Umm, Rummy didn't tell his president about this stuff, which is his job. He failed at his job, which he admitted at the beginning of his shpiel. When you fail at your job, what do you think you get - a friggin promotion?
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No, I don't think that. It is obvious that you are emotional about this subject. I don't really want to debate you about it. I respect your opinion but I disagree. I'm not vested in this so I will let you have the argument. If you would like to discuss my thoughts and feelings I would be happy to. But if you are going to be upset then never mind and I will conceed to whatever you say.

RandFan

P.S. Please don't construe the above to mean anything other than what is said. It was given in good faith and not meant to be provocative.
 
I am not of the opinion that Rumsfeld should be fired for the Iraqi prison abuses. On the other hand, I have a hard time believing that all the activities in the photos were thought up by a bunch of PFC's and were kept hidden from their officers for a few months. As for who should be fired or disciplined, I'll wait until more details are released.
 
Ladewig said:
As for who should be fired or disciplined, I'll wait until more details are released.
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Waiting for evidence before making a decision? What kind of forum do you think this is. Now, get your torch and pitchfork and join the herd.
 
Personal comment: Rummy is a nasty little creep. He has the cunning only of the stupid. It appears, on the evidence I have seen so far, that he was largely responsible for this Middle Eastern lark. The sooner he goes, the better for everyone.
 
Corplinx, your last post shows your complete bias. Weren't you all for storming Fallujah because of the treatment of the four Americans - being dragged through the streets, dismembered, etc. Can you produce a post that said we should wait for evidence before making a decision about Fallujah? Or did you instead have the opinion that
The siege of Fallujah is probably the best thing to happen since the fall of Baghdad since we have killed thousands of militants who would fight against a republic.
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Waiting for evidence before making a decision? What kind of forum do you think this is. Now, get your torch and pitchfork and join the herd.
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I wasn't going to be so rational in my previous post, but RandFan's repeated restraint had a positive effect on me.
 
Rumsfeld either withheld the investigation into the torture of Iraqis, or he downplayed their significance. He must have known that these photos would be a major public interest issue, and that they would cause outrage when they were made public.

But he didn't try to be transparent about what was going on. He only started apologising when the photos were leaked. That sends the wrong message to the Arab world. The message that sends is that Rummy doesn't give a crap about them, as long as his job is fine.

If Rumsfeld does not resign, this will tell the Iraqis that basically nothing will change. It will be much the same as under the Saddam regime with a few cosmetic changes (like promises of investigations and that 'this won't happen again' even though it's clear that it's been happening for quite some time). At least if he resigns, the Arabs can believe that the US is sincere when she says that they are not like Saddam's regime. After all, Saddam would never call for the resignation of the likes of Chemical Ali now, would he?
 
No, I didn't read the whole thread and so maybe I missed others with some freaking brains telling you just how messed up this post is.

Should we fire Kobe's coach? I mean he is in charge of Kobe, right, no wait, the team's owner has even more responsibility than the coach, so let us fire him. Wait a second, they'd never have the money if it weren't for fans supporting them, what do we do about those damned fans?

Fact. A few did some pretty stupid stuff.
Fact. It has been in the investigation process.
Fact. Rumsfeld or the president speaking their opinion of the case before the people are tried has the potential to create an undo bias that you and I and everyone would be complaining about if this was just a simple civilian based trial.

Yes look at what happens in a democracy when these allegations come to light. We investigate and punish the guilty. The beef here is why didn't he say something sooner. Well why not have the judge in the Michael Jackson case say something now. Hell let us skip the trial process and just let the judge say how he feels about the whole thing and influence the jury now. It should make for some quick deliberation.

You, subgenius and AUP just need to slow down a bit and look at what you say. According to the three of you the military should be disbanded and all politicians that voted in favor of sending people to the country that the problem has occured in need to be canned.
 
Dorian Gray said:
Corplinx, your last post shows your complete bias. Weren't you all for storming Fallujah because of the treatment of the four Americans - being dragged through the streets, dismembered, etc. Can you produce a post that said we should wait for evidence before making a decision about Fallujah? Or did you instead have the opinion that
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Can you provide a post where I called for storming Fallujah because of the treatment of the four Americans - being dragged through the streets, dismembered, etc. ?

I thought not.

The only way to ensure transition of Iraq to a civil society is for those forces that would eventually start a civil war after a transition to reveal themselves before the transition. In this way, the insurgents in Fallujah who attacked US troops and didnt abide the cease fires did us a favor. These are people we needed out of the Iraqi gene pool and voting base.

Pardon me if this opinion isn't politically correct, but sometimes reality isn't pretty.
 
Of course, if Bush DOES fire Rumsfeld, then the same people now hysterical that he didn't will whine that he is just using poor, innocent "Rummy", their friend, as a "human shield" and a "fall guy" for his own incompetence.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

By the way, aren't these protestors the same people who "expalined" to everybody how Bush is really a puppet run by Rumsefeld and Cheney anyway? How can a puppet fire its masters, or be blamed if it doesn't? I do wish they'd get their conspiracy theories straight...
 
Should we fire Kobe's coach?
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Please. You're horrible. Irrelevant and a strawman. The defense secretary is in charge of military actions. Military personnel committed heinous acts while in service, while in charge of prisoners, and while expected to follow the rules. Rumsfeld is responsible for the actions of his men/women (in terms of their treatment of prisoners, for example). He shouldn't be fired for their crimes, but rather for being negligent in his duties - failing to notify the president, failure to notify congress, failure to notify anyone of any import until he absolutely had to due to public outcry.

Kobe Bryant's coach is only responsible for what he does on the court or otherwise representing the team officially. If anyone from the military is discharged and commits a crime, the military is no longer responsible for them. Whether the military and Rumsfeld, etc., are responsible for them while they are on leave is debateable.

Yes look at what happens in a democracy when these allegations come to light.
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That's the saddest part. Only after they 'come to light'? Not after they are known from investigating this twice before? He doesn't even tell Bush or Congress?

Hell let us skip the trial process and just let the judge say how he feels about the whole thing and influence the jury now.
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That's yet another red herring. The 'jury' you are talking about is going to be a military tribunal, not a civilian court. This is not OJ, or Michael, or Kobe, or Rush, or anything like that.

According to the three of you the military should be disbanded and all politicians that voted in favor of sending people to the country that the problem has occured in need to be canned.
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You must buy straw by the ton.

Corplinx wrote
Can you provide a post where I called for storming Fallujah because of the treatment of the four Americans - being dragged through the streets, dismembered, etc. ?

I thought not.
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Nice try, but I didn't say you called for it, but that you were for it, and the quote bears that out, especially since it refers to the siege in the past tense.

Also, in a democracy everyone has an equal say, right? But according to you, we should kill certain people if they aren't going to vote our way. "These are people we needed out of the Iraqi gene pool and voting base." Nice.
 
I do wish they'd get their conspiracy theories straight...
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I thought it was Cheney, Rove and Wolfowitz, speaking of getting theories straight (ellipse).
 
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