Fasting

[g4macdad]

Fasting can be used for nearly every chronic condition, including allergies, anxiety, arthritis, asthma, depression, diabetes, headaches, heart disease, high cholesterol, low blood sugar, digestive disorders, mental illness, and obesity. Fasting is an effective and safe weight loss method. It is frequently prescribed as a detoxification treatment for those with conditions that may be influenced by environmental factors, such as cancer and multiple chemical sensitivity. Fasting has been used successfully to help treat people who have been exposed to high levels of toxic materials due to accident or occupation. Fasting is thought to be beneficial as a preventative measure to increase overall health, vitality, and resistance to disease. Fasting is also used as a method of mental and spiritual rejuvenation.

Ok I found a good link.

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/fasting-1

Anyone else here interested in this subject?

 

[Terry]

Moderator please! Is this level of trolling really acceptable?

Troll

Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator
Moderator

If you think a post violates the user agreement in some way, the correct thing to do is to use the "Report Post" button to report it, not to do this.

 

[g4macdad]

If you think a post violates the user agreement in some way, the correct thing to do is to use the "Report Post" button to report it, not to do this.

Thanks for the advice. I may consider it.

 

[Terry]

Thanks for the advice. I may consider it.

That would be sensible. You should bear in mind that moderators neither Kibo-ize the forum for the word "moderator", nor read every post. Therefore the only sure way to have a moderator examine something is to report it.

 

[JonWhite]

Personal annecdote only:

About 10 years ago I fasted in a bid to give up smoking. I'd kind of figured that patches, gum, etc hadn't helped so I'd try something radical. Looking back it seems a kind of odd decision to come to, but anyway...

For four days and nights I locked myself away indoors without any food, only drinking water with a little lemon juice added - I'd read somewhere that lemon juice helped the body detox. I remember that after the first day the hunger subsided but for the second and third day I had a rotten headache and my mouth tasted like the Pushkar camel fair. On the fourth day I felt pretty together again.

Nevertheless, the whole thing was a serious struggle. On the fifth day I was so pleased to have endured and just happy to finally eat once again that cigarettes weren't important or an issue somehow.

For some reason, after this I suffered almost none of the mental withdrawl cravings that had plagued earlier non-smoking attempts.

I have not smoked since.

 

[krazyKemist]

What about ketosis? I think this is the key factor of the medical benifits, right?

I think you mean 'ketogenesis' rather than 'ketosis'. Ketosis means that you are burning ketones (produced previously in burning glycogen) for energy. This happens when you are very close to death by starvation (30 to 40 days after stopping eating).

The order in which the body burns things is: sugars -> glycogen/fats -> protein -> ketones.

A high concentration of ketones in the body is known to be somewhat anti-convulsing. Ketogenic diets (diets which contain a strictly limited amount of sugar and a high amount of fat) are sometimes used in the treatment of some forms of epilepsy (mainly those refractory to standard medication):

link

Mechanism of action remains controversial though.

the Kemist

 

[g4macdad]

I think you mean 'ketogenesis' rather than 'ketosis'. Ketosis means that you are burning ketones (produced previously in burning glycogen) for energy. This happens when you are very close to death by starvation (30 to 40 days after stopping eating).

The order in which the body burns things is: sugars -> glycogen/fats -> protein -> ketones.

A high concentration of ketones in the body is known to be somewhat anti-convulsing. Ketogenic diets (diets which contain a strictly limited amount of sugar and a high amount of fat) are sometimes used in the treatment of some forms of epilepsy (mainly those refractory to standard medication):

link

Mechanism of action remains controversial though.

the Kemist

You may be correct that I was using the wrong terminology, but I was more interested in all out fasting and not restrictive diets.

Let me post this link again:

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/fasting-1

To fuel the brain, the body would need to burn over a pound of muscle a day, but the body has developed another way to create energy that saves important muscle mass. This protein-sparing process is called ketosis, which occurs during the third day of a fast for men and the second day for women. In this highly efficient state, the liver begins converting stored fat and other nonessential tissues into ketones, which can be used by the brain, muscles, and heart as energy.

Okay this is the quote about ketosis I was referring to.

I have noticed a lot of conflicting information on the subject, but I will keep searching.

 

[Dogdoctor]

Fasting can be used for nearly every chronic condition, including allergies, anxiety, arthritis, asthma, depression, diabetes, headaches, heart disease, high cholesterol, low blood sugar, digestive disorders, mental illness, and obesity.

The fact that fasting has been used is not significant in determining if it is helpful.

Fasting is an effective and safe weight loss method.

I would be interested in seeing some scientific data to back up this statement if there is any.

It is frequently prescribed as a detoxification treatment for those with conditions that may be influenced by environmental factors, such as cancer and multiple chemical sensitivity.

Hmmm frequently prescribed by who? I suspect the answer to that question is "quacks".

Fasting has been used successfully to help treat people who have been exposed to high levels of toxic materials due to accident or occupation.

I would like to see scientific information showing this to be true

Fasting is thought to be beneficial as a preventative measure to increase overall health, vitality, and resistance to disease. Fasting is also used as a method of mental and spiritual rejuvenation.

Ok so someone thinks that so what?

 

[ChristineR]

There are many unscientific sites and books that recommend fasting, but there isn't much in the way of scientific support for it.

Ketosis is a medical term for the state of having ketone bodies in your blood. Ketones are produced when the body burns fat, but they are normally quickly turned into something else.

Ketogenic just means something (a diet) that is likely to produce ketosis.

The rapid burning of fat doesn't start until about three days into starvation, when all the glucose in the liver and muscles is exhausted. At this point people generally stop being hungry and can even develop a sense of euphoria. This is an evolved response to the presence of ketones, as it indicates that you aren't likely to be getting much food for a while.

Ketosis is not healthy, despite what the low-carb folks will tell you. It means muscle loss, digestive and kidney problems, general weakness, poor judgment and bad breath. This doesn't keep people from inducing it deliberately.

The genius of Atkins is that you can eat all the protein and fat you want and still go into ketosis, as these are turned into fat and then ketones so you can be glucose-starved while overeating.

Although all this does cause rapid weight loss and (often) euphoria, the weight loss is usually temporary and there are serious health risks with ketosis. There are benefits such as lowered blood pressure and lower blood cholesterol associated with rapid weight loss, but these are not from fasting per se.

You will not detoxify yourself by starving. That's not how toxins are eliminated from the body. So far as I know, not one study supports claims for fasting improving the immune system.

Allergies and asthma can be helped by eliminating trigger foods. There is no benefit to fasting, so long as the trigger foods are eliminated.

The psychological effects of ketosis are harder to quantify. Sure euphoria is a treatment for depression, but lots of other things cause euphoria. You can't keep up either a true fast or a high-calorie, low-carb, ketogenic diet for very long, and once you quit you have to deal with all the stupid things you did while in brain fog.

 

[g4macdad]

There are many unscientific sites and books that recommend fasting, but there isn't much in the way of scientific support for it.

Ketosis is a medical term for the state of having ketone bodies in your blood. Ketones are produced when the body burns fat, but they are normally quickly turned into something else.

Ketogenic just means something (a diet) that is likely to produce ketosis.

The rapid burning of fat doesn't start until about three days into starvation, when all the glucose in the liver and muscles is exhausted. At this point people generally stop being hungry and can even develop a sense of euphoria. This is an evolved response to the presence of ketones, as it indicates that you aren't likely to be getting much food for a while.

Ketosis is not healthy, despite what the low-carb folks will tell you. It means muscle loss, digestive and kidney problems, general weakness, poor judgment and bad breath. This doesn't keep people from inducing it deliberately.

The genius of Atkins is that you can eat all the protein and fat you want and still go into ketosis, as these are turned into fat and then ketones so you can be glucose-starved while overeating.

Although all this does cause rapid weight loss and (often) euphoria, the weight loss is usually temporary and there are serious health risks with ketosis. There are benefits such as lowered blood pressure and lower blood cholesterol associated with rapid weight loss, but these are not from fasting per se.

You will not detoxify yourself by starving. That's not how toxins are eliminated from the body. So far as I know, not one study supports claims for fasting improving the immune system.

Allergies and asthma can be helped by eliminating trigger foods. There is no benefit to fasting, so long as the trigger foods are eliminated.

The psychological effects of ketosis are harder to quantify. Sure euphoria is a treatment for depression, but lots of other things cause euphoria. You can't keep up either a true fast or a high-calorie, low-carb, ketogenic diet for very long, and once you quit you have to deal with all the stupid things you did while in brain fog.

Could you please point us to the sources of all this information? As i did.

Could you also respectfully give us your reasons for assuming these sources are correct?

 

[ChristineR]

Could you please point us to the sources of all this information? As i did.

Could you also respectfully give us your reasons for assuming these sources are correct?

Well, the Wikipedia article on ketosis is a respectable place to start, but really most of it comes from books, of the kind which cite their sources, which are typically scientific studies.

For allergies and asthma and food in general see http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/
I doubt if anyone has done a study where they made people with food allergies fast and compared them to people who were just on elimination diets.

For detoxification, or the lack thereof, see Quackwatch. Since no one has come up with any evidence that fasting does remove toxins, there isn't much to cite.

For the general benefits of rapid weight loss on blood pressure, cholesterol, see http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/low_calorie.htm Again, I doubt if anyone has compared fasting to low calorie, as it is clear that the benefits are associated with low calorie and fasting is by definition low calorie.

For more details, consider the books of Dean Ornish, a good physiology text, the books of Covert Bailey, and the books of Kenneth Cooper.

I tend to trust books written by professionals with credentials, who cite studies written in peer-reviewed journals to support their claims. I do not trust websites that use words like "is thought to," makes claims that I know to be false, such as the claim that you will not loss muscle mass in ketosis. And for that, here's one more link.

 

[g4macdad]

Well, the Wikipedia article on ketosis is a respectable place to start, but really most of it comes from books, of the kind which cite their sources, which are typically scientific studies.

For allergies and asthma and food in general see http://www3.niaid.nih.gov/
I doubt if anyone has done a study where they made people with food allergies fast and compared them to people who were just on elimination diets.

For detoxification, or the lack thereof, see Quackwatch. Since no one has come up with any evidence that fasting does remove toxins, there isn't much to cite.

For the general benefits of rapid weight loss on blood pressure, cholesterol, see http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/low_calorie.htm Again, I doubt if anyone has compared fasting to low calorie, as it is clear that the benefits are associated with low calorie and fasting is by definition low calorie.

For more details, consider the books of Dean Ornish, a good physiology text, the books of Covert Bailey, and the books of Kenneth Cooper.

I tend to trust books written by professionals with credentials, who cite studies written in peer-reviewed journals to support their claims. I do not trust websites that use words like "is thought to," makes claims that I know to be false, such as the claim that you will not loss muscle mass in ketosis. And for that, here's one more link.

I found a study done on fasting right here.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=297130

Another

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=332976

I definately would not trust a site called" Quackwatch". Sounds like the Rush Limbaugh of medicine.

 

[skeptifem]

I saw someplace where fasting is widely used as a medical treatment. This subject seems pretty fascinating.

Does anyone here have any knowledge on the subject to share?

theres a lot of 'cleansing fast' crap floating around the weight loss industry, saying that fasting will rid your body of toxins. its bs. fasting is not good for anyone. not eating anything can seriously screw up your electrolytes and cause heart problems, and the body lowers the base metabolic rate to conserve the remaining body fat so when you DO start eating again you just gain it all back. And you feel absolutely terrible while you cant eat. from what i know ketones are not good for the body either.

studies showing a severely restricted calorie diet could prevent tumors and other diseases has lead to a different sort of diet, called 'cron' (calorie restriction optimum nutrition), which is like eating just barely enough food not to starve to death. i do not know how effective it is because all the tumor studies were done on animals.

 

[ChristineR]

I found a study done on fasting right here.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=297130

There are many studies on fasting and ketosis. What I'm not aware of is a study that compares the effects of fasting and very low calorie diets on blood pressure and cholesterol. I'm not even aware of a study that compares the effects on blood pressure and cholesterol of low calorie ketogenic diets to low calorie non-ketogenic diets. There might very well be some, I just don't know of one.

In general the answer is that low-calorie is low-calorie. Ketosis makes a small difference in some effects, but fasting doesn't seem to have any special properties than low calorie diets don't have.

 

[g4macdad]

theres a lot of 'cleansing fast' crap floating around the weight loss industry, saying that fasting will rid your body of toxins. its bs. fasting is not good for anyone. not eating anything can seriously screw up your electrolytes and cause heart problems, and the body lowers the base metabolic rate to conserve the remaining body fat so when you DO start eating again you just gain it all back. And you feel absolutely terrible while you cant eat. from what i know ketones are not good for the body either.

studies showing a severely restricted calorie diet could prevent tumors and other diseases has lead to a different sort of diet, called 'cron' (calorie restriction optimum nutrition), which is like eating just barely enough food not to starve to death. i do not know how effective it is because all the tumor studies were done on animals.

Please have some respect and point us to the source of this infomation. I know you ,being a skeptic, don't really expect us to just take your word for it.

 

[g4macdad]

There are many studies on fasting and ketosis. What I'm not aware of is a study that compares the effects of fasting and very low calorie diets on blood pressure and cholesterol. I'm not even aware of a study that compares the effects on blood pressure and cholesterol of low calorie ketogenic diets to low calorie non-ketogenic diets. There might very well be some, I just don't know of one.

In general the answer is that low-calorie is low-calorie. Ketosis makes a small difference in some effects, but fasting doesn't seem to have any special properties than low calorie diets don't have.

But it is my understanding that your body will not even reach the state of ketosis unless it is in a "starved" state. I am guessing you mean a really low calorie diet, (like juice for instance), not just any low calorie diet.

 

[ChristineR]

But it is my understanding that your body will not even reach the state of ketosis unless it is in a "starved" state. I am guessing you mean a really low calorie diet, (like juice for instance), not just any low calorie diet.

No, not quite. Ketosis is achieved by a low carbohydrate diet. Obviously ketosis evolved to help us human beings through low calorie times, but you can also achieve ketosis while on a high-calorie, low-carbohydrate diet.

That's the Atkins' diet. Juice diets are all carbohydrate calories, and are usually not ketogenic. It may only take about 100 - 200 calories of carbohydrates to pull someone out of ketosis. About 400-500 is typical. Juice diets are also usually laxative diets, but I suspect that they were invented by people who wanted to fast but didn't like the feeling of ketosis. They are the lowest calorie way out of ketosis.

So you have a whole bunch of variables: ketosis or not, low calorie or not, fasting or not.

 

[JJM]

I definately would not trust a site called" Quackwatch". Sounds like the Rush Limbaugh of medicine.

You don't like the title, "quackwatch?" Do you know the meaning of the phrase "feeble argument?" Quackwatch is the best single source of information critical of "healthcare" nonsense on the web. "Believers" do often complain that it is relentlessly negative about quackery. However, that is like complaining that some social-service site is relentlessly negative about child abuse.

I believe ChristineR has covered the rational territory (perhaps somebody else mentioned the idiocy of the notion of "detoxification"). Where do you get the idea that you can evaluate health claims? You are certainly mistaken about any medicinal value in fasting (beyond an intestinal upset, as mentioned). A friend here would say: If you can't understand; maybe it's you: http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf This is an article about unprepared people thinking they can sort out technical details.

 

[Dogdoctor]

g4macdad
What you are doing is presenting us a concept that is likely totally fabricated and asking us to provide you evidence that it isn't true. Generally speaking it works the other way around on this forum. If you want to say fasting is good for something you need to provide the evidence. However as you can see there is nothing to support the idea fasting provides health benefits.

 

[bruto]

Have you ever fasted?

More to the point, since you started this post: have you?

Fasting is ridiculously easy to experience for yourself. Just stop eating. Many have done it for various reasons, good or bad.

I tried it once long ago (not counting things like short fasts for medical tests, etc.) and can tell you from experience that it is not a good idea if your work involves the use of dangerous machinery. One man's euphoric is another man's stupid.