Executive Privilege Abused Once More

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You've already shown yourself willing to lie about what a link points to. Don't link to the evidence, post it. Put up or shut up.
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What does this mean, "don't link to it, post it"? You can't read? I should spell it out? I did that, my link was to my previous post.

But in case you have trouble reading try this March 07 You Tube video which spells it out and spells out the connection to Bush.

US ATTY-GATE: Schumer on News that Rove, Bush Were Involved.
 
What is so difficult to understand about that?
Posting a bunch of non sequiturs and then saying "what's so hard to understand about that?" is not an argument.

Again, just to reemphasize the point, they aren't asking about his personal life.
Strawman.

You are arguing a completely non-applicable point.
What point is that, and how is it non-applicable? And why do I have to ask you this? Why did you refuse to present a coherent response to begin with?

It is pretty much the only tool Congress has to investigate.
That's crap.

Art take your talking points and shove em,
there is little you are adding to the conversation, and there is no executive privilege in the CotUS. Congress has oversight in the CotUS, what is not in CotUS is legislative.
Pot, kettle.

skeptigirl said:
It’s difficult to discern whether there is evidence of impropriety if no evidence is presented at all. There are only the flat statements that the U.S. Attorneys “serve at the pleasure of the President.”

And in the end, how are they going to know if anything illegal was happening if they don't investigate?

Dancing David said:
You can't expect people to have evidence when someone refuses to cooperate with an investigation.

Blah blah blah. Clearly, you guys are the ones with the talking points. And you continue to engage in this inanity, despite me pointing it out.

Question for you, why doesn't Congress have oversight over the hiring and firing of individuals at the DoJ.?
When did I say they don't?

I hope you can do better than just spewing crap.
You're the one who is simply engaging in insults and not providing an argument.

Cite CotUS and the law and not just your groupthink talking points.
It's clearly you who is engaging in groupthink, mindlessly repeating this "tlaking points" crap. There's obviously no point trying to have a conversation with you.

Why is the subpeona of documents illegal?
When did I say they are?

[quoteskeptigirl]Art, could you try to stay on track. Attacking me because you can't support your beliefs is a waste of time...... Don't waste everyones' time BSing that I didn't cite any evidence. The evidence has been in the public arena for a year, I posted citations already and I linked to a post of mine where I laid the whole case out with links to the sources of the information.[/quote]So, what, what you have to say is SO FREAKING IMPORTANT that you're just going to repeat the same exact thing over and over again?

If I have frank's, "serves at the pleasure of the President", mixed up with your, "the subpoenas are a fishing expedition" then I apologize. It's hardly a lie, you both are arguing the same position and that is the bottom line.
No, we're not arguing the same position. Simply because you're such a knee-jerk Leftist that you automatically put everyone who disagrees with you in the exact same caregory doesn't mean they're all the same person making the same argument. It's exactly this sort of thinking that underlies your insipid use of the term "talking points". Since you continued making the claim even after I had informed you of the error, it was not an honest mistake, but a lie. And since I have already explained this, and you just ignored it, that makes yet another lie.

What does this mean, "don't link to it, post it"? You can't read? I should spell it out? I did that, my link was to my previous post.
I'm not doing to try to explain to you basic debating etiquette, partly because I don't think your claims of ignorance are genuine. Simply posting links is not a valid form of argument, nor is posting pages and pages of crap. You are giving me absolutely nothing to respond to. I'm not going to try to rebut a 5,000 work post. If you have some evidence, you should be able to summarize it in under 100 words. Now, I generally consider the ignore feature somewhat silly, as we don't need a special feature to not someone's post. But considering your absolute refusal to engage in anything resembling honest debate, and now your mutilation of this thread, I'm going to put you on ignore simply so I don't have to spend a minute scrolling to get to the end of this thread. I'm going to report your post for your appalling lack of manners.

Even getting rid of the introductory comments, the first 106 words consist only of this:
No one has said voter fraud doesn't occur. Blunt found a small number of confirmed cases and a larger number of potential cases because the registration roles were cluttered with errors and deceased voters. Subsequent investigations from a couple different reporters found there were more registration errors than illegal votes.

Exaggerating the problem, Blunt got state voter ID legislation passed by a very small margin. It was overturned by the state supreme court who found the amount of fraud was small and the ID reqs amounted to a poll tax. There was one dissenting judge and I posted his opinion as well as the majority's below.
Not a single piece of evidence there that comes close to supporting your claims. And I'm supposed to read through fifty more passages to see if you, a blatant liar, are telling the truth when you say there is some evidence, somewhere among all that crap? Like hell.
 
Here is skeptigirl's post reposted, but presented in a way that doesn't clutter up the thread.

There is a lot of material here. I've posted a lot of the text from the links below so people don't have to read through every link but it makes for an overly lengthy post. It's even almost too long for me to re-read to edit it.

Here is the summary:

No one has said voter fraud doesn't occur. Blunt found a small number of confirmed cases and a larger number of potential cases because the registration roles were cluttered with errors and deceased voters. Subsequent investigations from a couple different reporters found there were more registration errors than illegal votes.

Exaggerating the problem, Blunt got state voter ID legislation passed by a very small margin. It was overturned by the state supreme court who found the amount of fraud was small and the ID reqs amounted to a poll tax. There was one dissenting judge and I posted his opinion as well as the majority's below.

This is the same thing that is turning up in all these cases. There are a small number of illegal votes. (No surprise) The Republicans are using those to go around campaigning for voter ID reqs. The allegations continue to be found to be greatly exaggerated and there is a considerable number of people who are convinced the voter ID amounts to a move to disenfranchise a large number of voters, especially in key states.

But oh what a tangled web they weave...

Turns out Blunt was helped in his Secretary of State campaign by the RNC just before he made the public cries about voter fraud and pushing for voter ID laws. And the firing of Attorney Cummins in the same state to make way for Griffin ties in nicely if one is looking at Karl Rove's advance planning to disenfranchise a large number of voters in key states in the 2008 election. Not only is Missouri evenly divided between Republicans and Democrats, there is a key Senate race coming up in Missouri that is likely to be a close call.

This just adds a ton to the credence to my conspiracy claim. The attorney scandal includes firing Bud Cummins from Missouri and replacing him with Griffin, from Rove's inner circle who had no qualms directing the well documented Fl. caging incident. (Reminder: the caging list existed, the RNC admitted so with an absurd excuse for its existence, Goodling testified under oath the caging incident occurred and Griffin was involved, and Griffin resigned because of it.) Clearly Rove has a hand in elections and attorneys in Missouri for a reason.

Looking at the Wiki entry on Blunt and this article which outlines the claims Blunt made about voter fraud and the subsequent events surrounding state legislation enacting voter ID, we have a microcosm of things to come.

There is a curious connection to the voter disenfranchisement plot. Blunt went investigating voter fraud in Missouri shortly after being elected to Sec. of State.

From Wiki:
Quote:
Election as Secretary of State

Blunt received considerable fundraising support from his father's supporters and from out-of-state Republicans in his 2000 Secretary of State bid. Senior political strategist Karl Rove appeared at an April 21, 2000 fundraiser in Springfield.[2] The state Republican Party contributed $160,000 to Blunt's campaign, having received $100,000 in donations from Rep. Roy Blunt's PAC[3], and the 7th District Congressional Republican Committee - a fundraising group affiliated with the senior Blunt - donated $40,000.[4]. Contributions from 84 of Rep. Blunt's colleagues in the U.S. House of Representatives totalled over $65,000.[5][6] Matt Blunt defeated his Democrat opponent Steve Gaw with 51.4% of the vote, to Gaw's 45.1%.[7]
Seems Blunt then went on to run for governor and won. Again we have evidence he is close with the big guys in the RNC and not above taking advantages in a race when the opportunity arises.

It seems some of his campaign money for the governor's race was tainted with the Tom DeLay/Jack Abramoff illegal dealings via Blunt Sr's manipulations. After all, ethics are taught at home.
Quote:
When it all ended, DeLay's private charity, along with the consulting firm that employed DeLay's wife and the Missouri campaign of Blunt's son, Matt, who now is the state's governor, all ended up with a piece of the pie, according to campaign documents reviewed by The Associated Press.

Jack Abramoff, the Washington lobbyist recently charged in an ongoing federal corruption and fraud investigation, and Jim Ellis, the DeLay fundraiser indicted with his boss last week in Texas, also appeared in the picture.

The complicated transactions are drawing scrutiny in legal and political circles after a grand jury indicted DeLay on charges of violating Texas law with a scheme to launder illegal corporate donations to state political candidates.

The government's former chief election enforcement lawyer said the Blunt and DeLay transactions are similar to the Texas case and raise questions that should be investigated regarding whether donors were deceived or the true destination of their money was concealed.
And we have this little jewel:For someone concerned about voting practices as Blunt claims to be, this was a bit hipocritical. Voting Rights: Missouri Compromised
Quote:
John Hickey is the executive director of the Missouri Progressive Vote Coalition. He said today: ... As we witnessed in 2000, the secretary of state plays a very crucial role in the electoral process. It's essential that this person runs fair and impartial elections and does not misuse the office for partisan gain. Unfortunately, recent events in Missouri show serious problems can arise from partisan use of this key public office. Missouri Secretary of State Matt Blunt has spent almost $48,000 in public money on statewide newspaper advertising that included his name and picture, urging voters to turn out for the August 3 primary -- where he was running on that same ballot as a Republican gubernatorial candidate! Adding to the irony is the fact that the funds Blunt used for what amounted to a publicly-paid campaign ad were from federal appropriations to Missouri from the Help America Vote Act (HAVA), which was enacted in 2002 as a response to the events in Florida. That money is supposed to be used for purposes such as recruiting and training election judges, buying voting machines that disabled people can use, and improving maintenance of voter lists. It's outrageous that a secretary of state used HAVA money as a personal political slush fund."

Hickey added: "Matt Blunt is the son of Roy Blunt, the current Republican Majority Whip in the U.S. House of Representatives, a very powerful position. Roy Blunt has already raised money for his son's previous campaigns, and the Matt Blunt bid is a priority for the Republican National Committee."
No wonder! Missouri's race for governor was neck and neck (Blunt won 51 to 49%) as was the 2000 election where the Blunt's claims of voter fraud surfaced. And voter ID law was passed by a slim margin. If you were Karl Rove planning your 2008 strategy of voter disenfranchisement in key states, Missouri would clearly be a candidate. Send in one of the 'team', Griffin, and make sure to disenfranchise as many Democratic voters as the opportunity allows. And you have already helped get your man, Blunt, in as governor after he did your bidding looking for voter fraud. Not to mention there will be a close race for a Senate seat in 2008 as well as the vote for President which could change the power in the House.

Also from Wiki:
Quote:
United States Attorney Controversy -
In April 2006 it was reported that United States Attorney Bud Cummins "is handling an investigation into how the license fee offices were awarded to political supporters of the Blunt administration."[26] On October 4, 2006, Cummins announced "that he has concluded an inquiry into alleged wrongdoings involving the awarding of contracts for Missouri fee offices with no indictments sought or returned." Cummins elaborated: "First, the matter has been closed with no indictments sought or returned. Second, at no time was Governor Blunt a target, subject, or witness in the investigation, nor was he implicated in any allegation being investigated. Any allegations or inferences to the contrary are uninformed and erroneous." [27] Cummins has since become embroiled in the Dismissal of U.S. attorneys controversy: in December 2006, Cummins resigned from his post in favor of Tim Griffin, a former aide to Karl Rove. Cummins acknowledges that he "served at the pleasure of the president," and that Attorney General Gonzales "doesn't owe me an apology." [28] Cummins concluded his investigation of the Blunt Administration two months before he resigned.

Here is the account of the events from 2000 on. It is long, but this whole affair has that much crap in it.
Quote:
Now, six months after freshman Missouri Sen. Jim Talent's defeat handed Democrats control of the U.S. Senate, disclosures in the wake of the firings of eight U.S. attorneys show that that Republican campaign to protect the balloting was not as it appeared. No significant voter fraud was ever proved. Before last fall's election:

-Schlozman, while he was acting civil rights chief, authorized a suit accusing the state of failing to eliminate legions of ineligible people from lists of registered voters. A federal judge tossed out the suit this April 13, saying Democratic Missouri Secretary of State Robin Carnahan couldn't police local registration rolls and noting that the government had produced no evidence of fraud.

-The Missouri General Assembly - with the White House's help - narrowly passed a law requiring voters to show photo identification cards, which Carnahan estimated would disenfranchise 200,000 voters. The state Supreme Court voided the law as unconstitutional before the election.

-Two weeks before the election, the St. Louis Board of Elections sent letters threatening to disqualify 5,000 newly registered minority voters if they failed to verify their identities promptly, a move - instigated by a Republican appointee - that may have violated federal law. After an outcry, the board rescinded the threat.

-Five days before the election, Schlozman, then interim U.S. attorney in Kansas City, announced indictments of four voter-registration workers for a Democratic-leaning group on charges of submitting phony applications, despite a Justice Department policy discouraging such action close to an election.

-In an interview with conservative talk-show host Hugh Hewitt a couple of days before the election, Rove said he'd just visited Missouri and had met with Republican strategists who "are well aware of" the threat of voter fraud. He said the party had "a large number of lawyers that are standing by, trained and ready to intervene" to keep the election clean.

Missouri Republicans have railed about alleged voter fraud ever since President Bush narrowly won the White House in the chaotic 2000 election and Missouri Republican Sen. John Ashcroft lost to a dead man, the late Democratic Gov. Mel Carnahan, whose name stayed on the ballot weeks after he died in a plane crash.

Joining the push to contain "voter fraud" were Sen. Christopher Bond, R-Mo., who charged that votes by dogs and dead people had defeated Ashcroft, Missouri Republican Gov. Matt Blunt, whose stinging allegations of fraud were later debunked, and St. Louis lawyer Mark "Thor" Hearne, national counsel to Bush's 2004 re-election campaign, who set up a nonprofit group to publicize allegations of voter fraud.

Many Democrats contend that the efforts amount to a voter-suppression campaign.

"The real problem has never been vote fraud," said Rep. William Lacy Clay, D-Mo. "It's access to the polls. In the last 50 years, no one in Missouri has been prosecuted for impersonating someone else at the polls. But thousands of eligible voters have been denied their constitutional rights. . . . It's sickening."

However, Jessica Robinson, a spokeswoman for Blunt, said a report he'd authored in 2001 as secretary of state "documented credible instances of fraud." She said Blunt wanted the legislature to take another shot at passing a photo ID bill as "a reasonable step . . . to help stamp out" such abuse.

The Republican-dominated legislature is considering the bill again this year, along with a resolution asking voters to pass a constitutional amendment so the measure can withstand court challenges.

In a separate assessment of alleged voter fraud in Missouri, Lorraine Minnite, a Barnard College professor, found scant evidence of it. The study was undertaken for the nonpartisan policy-research group Demos, which despite its name isn't affiliated with the Democratic Party.

Minnite, who's writing a book on the issue of voter fraud, said successful drives to register poor people and minorities in recent years had threatened to "tip the balance of power" to Democrats, so it was understandable that the Republican Party would seek restrictions that "disproportionately hinder the opposition."

It's difficult to capture the emotional debate over the issue of voter fraud in Missouri without considering the Election Day tumult in St. Louis on Nov. 7, 2000. Hundreds, perhaps thousands, of voters were turned away because their names weren't on official lists, and many of them converged on the city's election board seeking assistance.

Responding to the bedlam, Democrats won an emergency court order that kept some polls open beyond their scheduled 7 p.m. closings. That outraged Republicans, and Hearne, the Bush campaign lawyer, in turn won an emergency appeals-court ruling that shut the polls within an hour.

In the ensuing days, Bond blamed Ashcroft's defeat on "a criminal enterprise."

The following summer, then-Secretary of State Blunt alleged in a 47-page investigative report that the use of affidavits to allow more than 1,000 "improper ballots . . . compels the conclusion that there was in St. Louis an organized and successful effort to generate improper votes in large numbers."

But an investigation by the Justice Department's Civil Rights Division, launched before Ashcroft settled in as U.S. attorney general in 2001, found the reverse. In a 2002 court settlement with the department's Voting Rights Section, St. Louis election officials acknowledged that they'd improperly purged some 50,000 names from voter lists before the 2000 elections and had failed as required by federal law to notify those people properly that they'd been placed on inactive status. No one knows how many eligible voters were denied their right to cast ballots.

Missouri's Rep. Clay charged in a recent interview that Blunt's report was an attempt "to violate the voting rights of certain Missourians."

Things didn't heat up again until 2005, when Schlozman authorized a Justice Department suit naming the newly elected Missouri secretary of state - the daughter of the late governor - as the defendant. It alleged that her office had failed to make a "reasonable effort" to remove ineligible people from local voter-registration rolls.

A federal judge dismissed the suit last month, saying the government had provided no evidence of fraud.

Speaking on behalf of Schlozman, who's now with the Justice Department's Executive Office for U.S. Attorneys, agency spokesman Dean Boyd said: "We are disappointed with the court ruling." [Surprise, more ties to the US Attorneys scandal]

Separately, Hearne helped establish the nonprofit American Center for Voting Rights in February 2005, which issued lengthy reports alleging voter fraud in states across the country, including Missouri. One director of the supposedly nonpartisan group was Brian Lunde, a former executive director of the Democratic National Committee who switched his allegiance in 2000 and headed Democrats for Bush in 2004.

Barnard's Minnite said the center's summary on Missouri consisted of "a litany of overblown allegations of fraud appearing in newspapers, most of which turn out to be minor problems or no problem at all."

Republican state Sen. Delbert Scott of Lowry, Mo., chief sponsor of the photo-ID bill last year, said Hearne had helped draft it and served as a key adviser.

Hearne didn't respond to several requests for comment. His organization closed down its Internet site in March and has disappeared from view.

Last fall, with Missouri's new voter-ID law thrown out by the court, allegations of fraud arose over registration drives among Democratic-leaning minorities in St. Louis and Kansas City by the Democratic-leaning Association of Community Organizations for Reform (ACORN).

Brian Mellor, a Boston lawyer for ACORN, said many of the accusations surrounded the submission of duplicate or multiple registration forms for the same voters. Such duplication would be caught by election officials and wouldn't enable anyone to vote twice, he said.

But officials at St. Louis' Board of Elections took the unusual step of alerting the FBI to those and other irregularities, Mellor said, and he wound up turning over copies of 40,000 St. Louis-area registration forms to bureau agents.

Facing the FBI scrutiny, Mellor said, ACORN reviewed its forms in Kansas City and found several with similar handwriting, suggesting that they were bogus. He said the group turned over evidence involving four workers to a county prosecutor in mid-October.

That same month, at the initiative of a Republican appointee, the St. Louis Board of Elections sent letters warning 5,000 people who'd registered through ACORN that their voting status was in question. They were given one week to return signed copies of the letter and confirm personal identifying information or they'd lose their registration status.

ACORN attorneys charged that the notice "appears to be an unlawful attempt to suppress and intimidate voters of color." The board sent another mailing withdrawing the threat.

Meanwhile, the evidence against the four ACORN workers ended up with the FBI.

Five days before the election, U.S. Attorney Schlozman got another voter-fraud headline, announcing the indictments of the four workers. The indictments charged that six applications that ACORN had submitted were fraudulent.

"ACORN abhors fraud," Mellor said. He said the timing of the indictments seemed to be aimed at hurting Democrats.

Justice Department spokesman Boyd said the policy that prosecutors "refrain from any conduct which has the possibility of affecting the election" didn't bar pre-election indictments and was intended to ensure that investigators didn't intimidate voters during an election. Boyd said officials in the department’s Public Integrity Section approved the indictments.

But Joseph Rich, who headed the department's Voting Rights Section from 1999 to 2005, said the timing of the indictments "flies in the face of long-standing policy. . . . There was no need to bring cases on the eve of the election."
Reporters from the Kansas City Star investigated the voter fraud supposedly found by Blunt.
Quote:
The Star's investigation uncovered more double voters, and records suggest there could be more than 300 statewide. The exact number is impossible to determine because many counties have shredded their poll books, as allowed under state law, and state computer files are rife with data errors.

Of the more than 300 potential cases of vote fraud in 2000 and 2002, The Star found about 150 in St. Louis or St. Louis County, 60 in the Kansas City area — including three dozen in Kansas City itself — and the rest scattered across the state.

The total number of cases could be even higher.

Anyone registered under a slightly different name or date of birth in two places would escape detection in the newspaper's analysis of voter registration databases in Missouri and Kansas. The study only flagged people registered in two places under exactly the same names and dates of birth.

The figure may be smaller, on the other hand, because the state computer files contain many errors that show people voting who did not actually vote.

Information for the St. Louis area in the state computer file, however, is especially corrupt. For example, nearly 15,000 voter names appear with no date of birth or dates before 1880. With so many errors, many of the voters listed as having voted in two places in the St. Louis area may actually have voted in only one.

A state audit in May found 24,063 persons registered in St. Louis who were dead, registered somewhere else, convicted of a felony or listed as living at a vacant lot.

Local election officials said they don't think the problem of double-voting is widespread. Dan Seligson, editor of Electionline.org, which provides nonpartisan information about election reform, said fraudulent absentee ballots seem much more common.
The State Supreme Court ruling on the voter ID law:
October 17, 2006; Missouri State Supreme Court Affirms Order Barring Implementation of State Voter ID System
Quote:
The court's opinion is here. Though this is decided on state constitutional grounds (which insulates it to a great extent from U.S. Supreme Court review), the court's decision has the same structure of those other court decisions that have struck down similar laws in other jurisdictions. (1) These laws impose too great a burden on the right to vote, and indeed can constitute a poll tax to the extent that the state does not pay the expenses associated with obtaining the documentation necessary to get the i.d. and (2) the state has not shown a sufficient interest in the law as a means of fraud prevention, given the paucity of evidence that such laws would meaningfully prevent "impersonation" voter fraud.

One state court justice dissented, and pointed to this evidence of impersonation voter fraud in the record:

According to the majority, there has been no fraud in the polling places; thus no need to prevent it. But the evidence, in part, is this: In an investigative report issued after the 2000 presidential election by outgoing Secretary of State Rebecca McDowell Cook, and introduced in evidence in this case, "135 people who were not registered to vote were permitted to vote at a polling place without a court order and without apparent authorization from [an election] Board Official." A subsequent report from then Secretary of State Matt Blunt noted, as even the plaintiffs have acknowledged here, that 79 voters registered from vacant lots, 45 people voted twice, and 14 votes were cast by the "dead." Further, as part of a federal investigation in the aftermath of the 2000 election, the United States Department of Justice found a stunningly large number of duplicate and ineligible voter registrations throughout the state. According to that report,...

And if, as in the DOJ report, there are more voters registered to vote than persons eligible to vote, the requirement to present a photo ID will at least eliminate those who attempt to vote in the place of others and those who attempt to vote more than once. It must be said, too, that even if there were no substantial evidence of existing voter impersonation fraud, legislatures are permitted to respond to the potential for such fraud, and they may do so "with foresight" rather than "reactively." Munro v. Socialist Workers Party, 479 U.S. 189 (1986). In any event, as the Carter-Baker Commission recently concluded, "there is no doubt that [in-person voter fraud] occurs" and that such fraud "could offset the outcome of close elections"

[Article commentary]Why else would registration fraud occur? Because there is sometimes a bounty paid for each registration turned into election officials. The more important question is whether these number, assuming they are accurate (they may not be) would justify an onerous voter identification law. Spencer Overton's recent book [Stealing Democracy, the New Politics of Voter Suppression] and forthcoming article [Voter Identification; SPENCER A. OVERTON; George Washington University - Law School] explore this question very nicely.
More commentary from Bob Bauer [Voter ID: The Missouri Supreme Court Evaluates Legislative "Foresight"].
October 18, 2006; More on Fraud Allegations in Missouri Supreme Court Voter ID Dissent
Quote:
Judge Limbaugh's characterization was itself inaccurate, and incorrectly bolsters a report often cited as proof that fraud occurs.

In the snippet that was disseminated, the dissent claims that "A subsequent report from then Secretary of State Matt Blunt noted, as even the plaintiffs have acknowledged here, that 79 voters registered from vacant lots, 45 people voted twice, and 14 votes were cast by the 'dead.'"

On page 9 of the report itself (http://bond.senate.gov/mandate.pdf), Secretary Blunt was more precise:
"Based on information provided by the City and County Boards of Election Commissioners (the "City Board" and "County Board", respectively), it is highly probable that twenty-three (23) people voted more than once in the November 7 election, and it is likely that an additional forty-five (45) persons voted twice.

"Based on information provided by the Missouri Department of Health, fourteen (14) persons in St. Louis City and County who were reported as deceased before the November 7 election nevertheless are recorded as having voted in the election.

"Based on information provided by the City Board, it appears that seventy-nine (79) voters who were registered from vacant lots in St. Louis City voted in the November 7 election."
(emphasis added).

Later in the report, Secretary Blunt revealed the basis for these three assessments. The first two do not necessarily reveal fraud. And the last has been conclusively disproved.

For the double-voters, investigators used voting history entries in St. Louis City and County computer databases to determine whether individuals were listed as voting twice. 23 voters who were apparently listed in both databases as voting in the same election matched name, date of birth, and social security number; 45 voters matched names and date of birth. Although I do not have ready access to the actual list of compared names, if the names are even relatively common, it would not be surprising to find 45 pairs of distinct voters whose name and date of birth match, out of more than 613,000 votes cast in St. Louis City and County in 2000. And though it is, of course, possible that the voters whose name, date of birth, and social security number were actually double voters, before determining that such a conclusion is "highly probable," I'd want some rough approximation of the rate of clerical errors -- which have been mistaken for double votes before. (See, e.g., http://www.jsonline.com/story/?id=350183)

For the deceased voters, investigators compared a list of individuals who died in St. Louis City and County from 1990-2000 against the same voter databases, and found 14 voters with the same names, dates of birth, and social security numbers. Again, it is possible that these votes were fraudulent. But before so concluding, in addition to examining the clerical error rate, it would be useful to double-check to see whether any of the voters on the deceased list actually died after the election. (See, e.g., Marcia Myers, Election Theft Ruled Out, Baltimore Sun, Aug. 24, 1995, at 1A.)

Finally, for the 79 voters apparently registered from vacant lots, the St. Louis City Board of Election Commissioners provided a report of addresses "verified to be vacant by the Board" and the names and voting history of individuals registered to vote at those addresses. Exemplary follow-up investigation by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch found that the supposedly vacant lots were, in fact, not vacant; indeed, some apparently contained buildings more than 50 years old. As a Demos report by Lori Minnite and David Callahan reported, "Errors in the city's property records and methods for classifying vacant a multi-parcel address if only one of the parcels at the address is vacant" apparently accounted for the errors. (See, e.g., http://www.demos.org/pubs/EDR_-_Securing_the_Vote.pdf at 49 & n.88).
Finally, this abstract from voter ID article above sums up the reason for not implementing the voter ID regs:
Quote:
In the wake of closely contested elections, calls for laws that require voters to present photo identification as a condition to cast a ballot have become pervasive. Advocates tend to rely on two rhetorical devices: (1) anecdotes about a couple of elections tainted by voter fraud; and (2) common sense arguments that voters should produce photo identification because the cards are required to board airplanes, buy alcohol, and engage in other activities. This Article explains the analytical shortcomings of anecdote, analogy, and intuition, and applies a cost-benefit approach generally overlooked in election law scholarship. Rather than rushing to impose a photo identification requirement for voting, policymakers should instead examine empirical data to weigh the costs and benefits of such a requirement. Existing data suggests that the number of legitimate voters who would fail to bring photo identification to the polls is several times higher than the number of fraudulent voters, and that a photo identification requirement would produce political outcomes that are less reflective of the electorate as a whole. Policymakers should await better empirical studies before imposing potentially antidemocratic measures. Judges, in turn, should demand statistical data to ensure that voter identification procedures are appropriately tailored to deter fraudulent voters rather than legitimate ones and do not disproportionately exclude protected classes of voters.
That leaves the question about why are the Republicans pushing so hard for this action? Very little evidence the ID reqs would do anything except cost money. Hmmm, now why would they want to spend money on something to prevent a few illegal votes that very little evidence suggest matter? Could it be they hope it will prevent a lot of legal votes that will matter?


Is that really too hard of an idea to come up with?
 
emphasis added

What is an hypnotic suggestion?
The suggestion: "Ignore the facts, nothing to see here, we had good reason to fire the attorneys we just handled it poorly."

OK, so what were those "good reasons" then?

"Ignore the facts, nothing to see here, we had good reason to fire the attorneys we just handled it poorly."

If you want to know what is an hypnotic suggestion, this is one way to look at it.
 
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Hiya Art, these are the points I feel where you are implying that Congress does not have the right to subpoena the president and his staff on the attorney firings. I am not saying that there is or isn’t a basis for the pursuit of action upon unknown evidence. Just that Congress appears to me to have the right to issue the subpoena.
Except that their boss isn't Congress but the President. And one can argue that when one calls foreign agents in foreign countries, the country is within its rights to record the foreign national's conversation, and with it yours.
Congress does not have to be the boss of someone to investigate the executive branch and its daily activities. There is oversight. I would argue that since many of the staff members of the president are ‘confirmed’ by Congress that there is oversight implied in that process. I could be wrong but I believe that the AGs fall into that category.
We don't know for sure whether Barack Obama is a terrorist because we can't get a search warrant to search his home, and we can't get a search warrant because we don't know for sure he's a terrorist. To some, this may seem like a vicious catch-22. For others, it's just how we do things here in America. Good to know where you, with your "why does he object to an investigation if he has nothing to hide" attitude, stand on fishing expeditions.
Now I am not sure why you make this comparison, Congress has the right to issue subpoenas, they are not search warrants. They are requests for information concerning the running of a public body. If there is a need for secrecy then the president can request that the hearings by closed and limited.

Then there is the preservation and investigation of the operation of the executive branch. In the CotUS and legislation these are powers given to Congress.
"And does Congress have the right to subpoena anyone simply to satisfy their curiosity? If they want to know what Bush eats for breakfast, can they subpoena the White House cooks? Or is there such a thing as privacy?
We are not talking about what the president has for breakfast.
The hypocrisy here stinks. Leftists complain about Bush pushing for more powers to violate people's privacy to fight terrorism, and they complain. When Congress violates privacy
Whose privacy, why would the actions of members of the executive branch be private in this case? They are members of the government, there is legislation to say that Congress has the right to investigate.
to investigate completely legal, albeit perhaps unseemly, behavior, it's Bush that's blamed. If Congress were controlled by Republicans, and they were handing out Contempt of Congress charges for people refusing to cooperate with invasive terrorism investigations, I'm sure the Left would be screaming bloody murder."
those are just assumptions and accusations now aren’t they.

Hypocrisy abounds on both sides. That is why issues are decided by the law and not on vague shifting moral and rhetorical arguments.

Which is why I ask, why is Congress illegal in issuing subpoenas?

You have compared it to illegal search and seizure. (Illegal invasion of privacy)
You have compared it to a warantless search. (Illegal)
You have said that the actions of the executive branch are within legal domain. Yet I believe that the law states the executive can not use its power solely in the pursuit of political and personal gain, which is why Congress wants to investigate.

So why shouldn't/can't Congress issue these subpeopnas?
 
Posting a bunch of non sequiturs and then saying "what's so hard to understand about that?" is not an argument.
I couldn't agree more. Happily, you will notice that that isn't what i did.


Strawman.
You were talking about his privacy, Art. That means his personal life outside of his duties as President. When he is acting as President, he is performing public duties. Privacy doesn't enter into it.


What point is that, and how is it non-applicable? And why do I have to ask you this? Why did you refuse to present a coherent response to begin with?
I'm sorry, I thought you understood the difference between privacy, which entails things that are none of the public's business, and the public interest, which includes the official actions of the President.

Your point about respecting the President's privacy in terms of "what did he have for breakfast" is valid, but it is not applicable to "what did he do in utilizing his Executive powers". The former is a privacy issue and should be respected. The latter is not a privacy issue and should at least be available to Congress for review, if not the general public.


That's crap.
Art, two questions:
  1. What do you think a subpoena is?
  2. What other forms of investigating the President do you think Congress has?
 
I already addressed this. Clearly, it's the Leftists who are simply repeating talking points.

There's a huge difference between investigating and issuing subpoenas. If you want to investigate, go right ahead. Look through public records. Interview witnesses. Just don't put a gun to someone's head and demand that they violate their boss's confidence.

Leftists? Whoa there bubba. Leftists my left buttock. People around here tend to want to uncover facts. Anybody that stands in the way of determining what happened, when, and who was responsible had better have a damn good reason - and to date, the current administration has yet to provide even a hint of half-assed reason for any of their actions.

Why are you defending this mess of incompetent power-grubbing liars? If you were defending them any harder, you couldn't breathe at all - and I imagine the little air you are getting is pretty flatulent.
 
No time for a hobby. I'm too busy saving our democracy.


Wow. With a post like that, you're just begging for ridicule. But I'm too busy single handedly righting every injustice in the world, because I'm, like, that important.:rolleyes:
 
I didn't say I was doing it single handedly, Freddy. Actually there are quite a few of us at the moment.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Posting a bunch of non sequiturs and then saying "what's so hard to understand about that?" is not an argument.

Then why on Earth did you do it?
I don't think he did:


"And does Congress have the right to subpoena anyone simply to satisfy their curiosity? If they want to know what Bush eats for breakfast, can they subpoena the White House cooks? Or is there such a thing as privacy? The hypocrisy here stinks. Leftists complain about Bush pushing for more powers to violate people's privacy to fight terrorism, and they complain. When Congress violates privacy to investigate completely legal, albeit perhaps unseemly, behavior, it's Bush that's blamed. If Congress were controlled by Republicans, and they were handing out Contempt of Congress charges for people refusing to cooperate with invasive terrorism investigations, I'm sure the Left would be screaming bloody murder."

What's so difficult to understand about that?
"Non-sequitor" is latin for "does not follow". My take is that Art is equating a private citizen's ...er, privacy... with a public official's public duties. This is a false equivocation. If it weren't for evoking this fallacy, his argument would follow.

The President of the United States does not have a right to privacy in the execution of his Presidential duties. He does have a high degree of autonomy afforded to him by the separation of powers, but that doesn't mean that he can refuse to let Congress know what he is doing and why.
 
Getting back on topic: Congress has subpoenaed Rove
They dispatched the letter shortly before Sen. Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., announced the subpoena of Rove, the president's top political strategist, in remarks on the Senate floor. The White House has claimed executive privilege to block congressional demands for documents or testimony by some current and former presidential aides.
Anything to keep the inner circle from actually having to testify under oath, I guess.

If this were really such a straight forward set of firings, why is the White House doing everything possible not to cooperate and set the matter straight? I find this very contemptuous and frustrating. Bush needs to remember that he is not above the other branches of government.
 
Given Gonzalez's blatent lies the last couple of days, I think the senate is getting a little PO'd. I think Arlen Spector, god bless him, is still pretty upset the way they used the judiciary committee (for example, first asking and receiving permission to get FISA warrants in arrears and then still going ahead and sidestepping FISA altogether)

BTW, I don't know how anyone can defend White House Counsel Gonzalez's attempt to needle approval (for whatever program!) from the AG when he was in intensive care and had properly transferred power to his deputy. Of course, remember, according to Bush, "If elected, my administration will not only do what is legally correct, but what is right."
 
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Congress does not have to be the boss of someone to investigate the executive branch and its daily activities.
My pointing out that they are not the boss of Congress was in direct response to a post implying that it is. I'd show you, but you didn't quote my post properly (notice that there's a link in my post to your post, so readers can quickly go see the complete post, instead of having to search through the thread for it).

Now I am not sure why you make this comparison, Congress has the right to issue subpoenas, they are not search warrants.
They are documents that compel the surrender of evidence. I don't see the distinction.

They are requests for information concerning the running of a public body.
Demands, not requests.

We are not talking about what the president has for breakfast.
But we ARE talking about whether Congress has a right to that information.

They are members of the government, there is legislation to say that Congress has the right to investigate.
So Congress gave itself this power? Seems a bit presumptuous to me. Perhaps Bush should sign an executive order contravening that legislation?

those are just assumptions and accusations now aren’t they.
No, they are beliefs soundly based on facts.

Hypocrisy abounds on both sides. That is why issues are decided by the law and not on vague shifting moral and rhetorical arguments.
Then why is the argument being framed as a moral debate? Why is the focus on whether Bush's actions are ethical, rather than whether they are illegal.

Which is why I ask, why is Congress illegal in issuing subpoenas?
When did I say they are?

You have compared it to illegal search and seizure. (Illegal invasion of privacy)
Not quite.

You have said that the actions of the executive branch are within legal domain.
No, I have said that people are hypocrites for criticizing them.

Yet I believe that the law states the executive can not use its power solely in the pursuit of political and personal gain, which is why Congress wants to investigate.
I don't see how that can be a workable principle. And Congress is using its power for political gain.

I couldn't agree more. Happily, you will notice that that isn't what i did.
No, I won't.

You were talking about his privacy, Art. That means his personal life outside of his duties as President.
No, it doesn't. Suppose someone is accused of murder, and the police want to search his house. If he refused, saying that it would be a violation of his privacy, is he claiming that murder is a private matter that is no one else's business?

Your point about respecting the President's privacy in terms of "what did he have for breakfast" is valid, but it is not applicable to "what did he do in utilizing his Executive powers".
But it is applicable to the claim the Congress can investigate anything it wants to, which it what it was a response to.

What do you think a subpoena is?
An order compelling a person to provide evidence.

What other forms of investigating the President do you think Congress has?
I've already answered that.

Leftists? Whoa there bubba. Leftists my left buttock. People around here tend to want to uncover facts.
This isn't about uncovering facts. This is using any rhetorical trick, no matter how dishonest, to attack Bush and anyone who doesn't unquestionly criticize him.

Why are you defending this mess of incompetent power-grubbing liars? If you were defending them any harder, you couldn't breathe at all - and I imagine the little air you are getting is pretty flatulent.
Simply because I have a problem with the hypocrisy and dishonesty of their critics doesn't mean that I am defending them. Why are YOU defending THESE liars? And with childish attacks, to boot.

My take is that Art is equating a private citizen's ...er, privacy... with a public official's public duties. This is a false equivocation.
I'm not, and even if I were, it wouldn't be an equivocation fallacy.

If this were really such a straight forward set of firings, why is the White House doing everything possible not to cooperate and set the matter straight?
You do realize that in the US, a basic principle of jurisprudence is that not only does the accused have the right to refuse to testify, but no conclusion is to be derived from such refusal, right? If someone were accused of a murder, and refused to allow the police to search his house, would you be asking why he isn't doing everything to cooperate with the investigation?
 
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Interesting response Art.

If Congress has the power to issue subpeonas than that is not illegal search and seizure, it is like a court issuing a subpeona. There is a difference between those two and the illegal searching of someone's house without good cause.

So then you say: can Congress pass legislation giving it the power to issue subpeonas? I would assume that is why judges and lawyers can have subpeonas as well, although I am not sure of that.
And yes that is within the domain of legislation. Congress has the right to make laws within the framework of the CotUS.

i am not sure of the scope of an executive order, what is the scope of them?
 
You do realize that in the US, a basic principle of jurisprudence is that not only does the accused have the right to refuse to testify, but no conclusion is to be derived from such refusal, right? If someone were accused of a murder, and refused to allow the police to search his house, would you be asking why he isn't doing everything to cooperate with the investigation?

There is a right in the fifth against self incrimination.
I would ask if the court had issued a search warrant or if the officers had good cause for entering someone’s home to search for evidence.(Due to some recent cases , police can enter a home with a good cause and search without a warrant.)

The rights in the fifth and fourth amendment and the right of habeas corpus does not preclude the search of someone’s home. it places limit upon it.

I would question the wisdom of subpoenaing the president’s breakfast menu. however if Congress has oversight in the DoJ than they may be within their rights to issue a subpoena. the executive is meant to be checked by the legislature, it was rather deliberate in the intent of the CotUS.
 

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